(July 4, 2013 at 6:12 pm)Koolay Wrote: But you think people are like rocks, so you don't actually have a reason for interacting with anyone, you failed your own test of logic.

If you know I am a rock, what are you doing talking to that rock? Surely you are wasting your own time and my time.

Now think about this: we may have been deterministically led to interact with other people and to try to convince them of that determinism....

(July 4, 2013 at 6:34 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(July 4, 2013 at 6:12 pm)Koolay Wrote: But you think people are like rocks, so you don't actually have a reason for interacting with anyone, you failed your own test of logic.

If you know I am a rock, what are you doing talking to that rock? Surely you are wasting your own time and my time.

Now think about this: we may have been deterministically led to interact with other people and to try to convince them of that determinism....

Based on what reason and evidence?

(July 4, 2013 at 6:12 pm)Koolay Wrote:

(July 4, 2013 at 9:51 am)Red Celt Wrote: Free will is a delusion. A very attractive delusion, but a delusion nonetheless. Of course, we don't like the idea that everything we do was pre-determined as an inevitability at the point of the Big Bang... but if you can't accept that conclusion, you'll have to find a source for your alleged free will.

We are but billiard balls rolling across a green baize - magnified by several levels of complexity. As a materialist, I'd like to see some evidence of the ghost that alters the paths of those balls.

Right but whatever you are saying right now is to convince people to change their minds for determinism, so you are a thousand times more illogical than anyone that believes in free will by your own definition.

I still don't think you understand determinism, because deterministically, you will or will not change your mind based on the argument given. Cause and effect. He doesn't have the free will to not try to change your mind. Causes leading up to this point have already brought that about. Your mind will change based on the the preceding effect or it won't based on the makeup of your mind. Complicated. I think not.

Free will still conceptually works in a deterministic universe. Assume I have the freedom to act according to my own will. This will the makeup of my mind. If other people or the environments deterministic nature intervenes and stops me from acting according to the determinations of my own wiring, then those things have taken away my free will. Otherwise I still have free will to act according to the laws of nature so far one has to abide by.

(July 4, 2013 at 6:46 pm)Koolay Wrote:

(July 4, 2013 at 6:34 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Now think about this: we may have been deterministically led to interact with other people and to try to convince them of that determinism....

Based on what reason and evidence?

My brain works based on the laws of physics.
Everything that happens in my head is then deterministic... highly complex, I'll grant you that, but determined by the laws of physics... even if we may have missed some of them.
My brain sends electrical impulses which cause my body to move and type these things on this forum.

Do you have any reason or evidence that states that the brain works non-deterministically?

(July 4, 2013 at 6:52 pm)BrotherNeto Wrote:

(July 4, 2013 at 6:12 pm)Koolay Wrote: Right but whatever you are saying right now is to convince people to change their minds for determinism, so you are a thousand times more illogical than anyone that believes in free will by your own definition.

I still don't think you understand determinism, because deterministically, you will or will not change your mind based on the argument given. Cause and effect. He doesn't have the free will to not try to change your mind. Causes leading up to this point have already brought that about. Your mind will change based on the the preceding effect or it won't based on the makeup of your mind. Complicated. I think not.

No... where is the reason and evidence? you can't just say something is like that in what is supposed to be a debate.

(July 4, 2013 at 6:58 pm)Koolay Wrote:

(July 4, 2013 at 6:52 pm)BrotherNeto Wrote: I still don't think you understand determinism, because deterministically, you will or will not change your mind based on the argument given. Cause and effect. He doesn't have the free will to not try to change your mind. Causes leading up to this point have already brought that about. Your mind will change based on the the preceding effect or it won't based on the makeup of your mind. Complicated. I think not.

No... where is the reason and evidence? you can't just say something is like that in what is supposed to be a debate.

I haven't as yet tried to prove it. Only stating what would occur in a deterministic universe. But, as for that you can find plenty of evidence in all the natural sciences pointing towards a deterministic universe.

(July 4, 2013 at 6:58 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(July 4, 2013 at 6:46 pm)Koolay Wrote: Based on what reason and evidence?

My brain works based on the laws of physics.
Everything that happens in my head is then deterministic... highly complex, I'll grant you that, but determined by the laws of physics... even if we may have missed some of them.
My brain sends electrical impulses which cause my body to move and type these things on this forum.

Do you have any reason or evidence that states that the brain works non-deterministically?

A rock falls on your head - the impact re-aranges your brain's chemistry. That's a crude example, but external influences change your brain's chemistry all the time.

(July 4, 2013 at 7:01 pm)Koolay Wrote:

(July 4, 2013 at 6:58 pm)pocaracas Wrote: My brain works based on the laws of physics.
Everything that happens in my head is then deterministic... highly complex, I'll grant you that, but determined by the laws of physics... even if we may have missed some of them.
My brain sends electrical impulses which cause my body to move and type these things on this forum.

Do you have any reason or evidence that states that the brain works non-deterministically?

A rock falls on your head - the impact re-aranges your brain's chemistry. That's a crude example, but external influences change your brain's chemistry all the time.

How is that non-deterministic?

(July 4, 2013 at 7:01 pm)Koolay Wrote:

(July 4, 2013 at 6:58 pm)pocaracas Wrote: My brain works based on the laws of physics.
Everything that happens in my head is then deterministic... highly complex, I'll grant you that, but determined by the laws of physics... even if we may have missed some of them.
My brain sends electrical impulses which cause my body to move and type these things on this forum.

Do you have any reason or evidence that states that the brain works non-deterministically?

A rock falls on your head - the impact re-aranges your brain's chemistry. That's a crude example, but external influences change your brain's chemistry all the time.

And these external influences are themselves deterministic as well. They may be chaotic, but that just means the interactions are highly complex.

(July 4, 2013 at 7:02 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(July 4, 2013 at 7:01 pm)Koolay Wrote: A rock falls on your head - the impact re-aranges your brain's chemistry. That's a crude example, but external influences change your brain's chemistry all the time.

How is that non-deterministic?

Because that rock has no free will, but you can easily choose to avoid being hit by the rock. The rock can't choose to move another direction or not fall.