(July 29, 2013 at 11:21 am)whateverist Wrote:

(July 29, 2013 at 10:31 am)enrico Wrote: The small tip at the top is the rational mind or what most of the people can perceive but the part under the water is the gift as Einstein put it.
So by getting the gift on the surface you are able to come up with a lot more knowledge.

This gets at the difference between the aims of spirituality and of integration. The idea that you drag the unconscious mind to the surface where you can plunder it with your conscious mind is the essence of spirituality. The goal of spirituality is for the conscious mind -Einstein's faithful servant- to take over the gift. Integration brings the two together but while the conscious mind becomes more and more in tune with the unconscious, it never takes over. The conscious mind remains the servant and in that way the totality of the self flourishes.

I tend to see spirituality as a kind of escapism from the actuality of the unconscious. The unconscious, like the world, is what it is. It will never bend to your will. Spirituality seeks the high places where one can see far. But life is in the valleys and swamps. I've done some spiritual questing and taken in some nice views but I choose to abide in the lowlands. The heights are ultimately sterile and devoid of life. It is better to find your place in the swamp where you are a part of something bigger and have lots of company.

You are confusing conscious with unconscious and then not being able to reach a high ground in your search for spiritual achievement you say that is not worth the trying.
This is typical of people who give up the fight without putting up a real effort and then blame something or somebody else for their failure.
Sorry, not good enough.

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(July 29, 2013 at 12:17 pm)LostLocke Wrote:

(July 29, 2013 at 10:31 am)enrico Wrote: Did i ever said that my consciousness judgement power is superior to someone who is not into consciousness?
Of course i never said that.
...
What i can say is that anyone who has a high consciousness power is much more able to have a higher judgement power then anyone who is not into consciousness.

Ummm, you basically just said that someone with a higher consciousness does have superior judgement power to someone without a higher consciousness.

I understand that this concept seem very confusing and it may need an explanation.
Suppose you are a genius and i am not.
Today i start practicing intuitional science so i can improve my skills by bringing to the surface from my subconscious more knowledge.
Do you think that in one day or in one year i can produce more knowledge and say that i am better then you?
Who knows? Probably not.
Probably it may take a life time or ten life times.
All depend on the level that you are and the level that i am. But if we start on the same level then the one who practice intuitional science will be a lot more advanced.
It is like when you star a race.
If you start first and i start later on even if i can run a bit faster it still will be difficult to catch up with you but if we start together thanks to my work i will able to beat you.

apophenia Wrote:your response was that chemicals do not cause durable changes to a person's mind. This was false.

When i said ..........Drugs and chemical reaction affect the brain ok but those effect last as long as the drugs or chemical reaction last which put a time limit to the process.........this was in response to your blabbing when you put chemicals and meditation on the same level.
Chemicals and drugs turn the brain into shit ok. but when you stop using these substances the chemical reaction stop this does not means that in the meantime the brain may have been turned into shit so here i am saying that what is stopping is the chemical reactions not the damage caused to a person mind.

Quote:Obviously, not content with following a false claim with a fallacious reply, you went for the hat trick by admitting that meditation does affect the brain just as drugs affect the brain. Are you trying to look stupid on purpose, or is this what 40 years of your 'tantric' yoga has done to your mind?

You are blabbing again.
I said.................Drugs effect affect the brains ok and in a bad way but meditation goes well over the brain.
What you think it means.......WELL OVER THE BRAIN?
Didn't i explain that the consciousness is the real I and not the brain?

Quote:If you are this incompetent at the grosser aspects of consciousness — simple reasoning — why would anyone trust that you are competent with regard to other, subtler aspects of consciousness? And knowing that Ananda Marga have a history of unethical and predatory practices, and you apparently align yourself with them and their founder, I have every reason to suspect that you, too, are predatory and unethical. You've already been caught lying, and then lied about your lying. I don't know if you're simply a brainless idiot who is yet another victim of this cheap knock-off copy of Hinduism, a predator looking to make converts through dishonesty and pretense, or just a desperate person looking for attention. What I do know is that you have been repeatedly asked to give us some reason to believe you, and quite the contrary, you've given us countless reasons not to. At worst, you're malevolent. At best, you're an incompetent boob. Fortunately for you, even fools have a role to play, and you're bringing smiles to the faces of members here by giving them something to laugh at.

BLA...bla.......bla......blabbing again and again when i thought that you may have got some mental peace and wisdom.
What a disappointment!!!

(July 30, 2013 at 10:40 am)enrico Wrote:

apophenia Wrote:your response was that chemicals do not cause durable changes to a person's mind. This was false.

When i said ..........Drugs and chemical reaction affect the brain ok but those effect last as long as the drugs or chemical reaction last which put a time limit to the process.........this was in response to your blabbing when you put chemicals and meditation on the same level.
Chemicals and drugs turn the brain into shit ok. but when you stop using these substances the chemical reaction stop this does not means that in the meantime the brain may have been turned into shit so here i am saying that what is stopping is the chemical reactions not the damage caused to a person mind.

Quote:Obviously, not content with following a false claim with a fallacious reply, you went for the hat trick by admitting that meditation does affect the brain just as drugs affect the brain. Are you trying to look stupid on purpose, or is this what 40 years of your 'tantric' yoga has done to your mind?

You are blabbing again.
I said.................Drugs effect affect the brains ok and in a bad way but meditation goes well over the brain.
What you think it means.......WELL OVER THE BRAIN?
Didn't i explain that the consciousness is the real I and not the brain?

Quote:If you are this incompetent at the grosser aspects of consciousness — simple reasoning — why would anyone trust that you are competent with regard to other, subtler aspects of consciousness? And knowing that Ananda Marga have a history of unethical and predatory practices, and you apparently align yourself with them and their founder, I have every reason to suspect that you, too, are predatory and unethical. You've already been caught lying, and then lied about your lying. I don't know if you're simply a brainless idiot who is yet another victim of this cheap knock-off copy of Hinduism, a predator looking to make converts through dishonesty and pretense, or just a desperate person looking for attention. What I do know is that you have been repeatedly asked to give us some reason to believe you, and quite the contrary, you've given us countless reasons not to. At worst, you're malevolent. At best, you're an incompetent boob. Fortunately for you, even fools have a role to play, and you're bringing smiles to the faces of members here by giving them something to laugh at.

BLA...bla.......bla......blabbing again and again when i thought that you may have got some mental peace and wisdom.
What a disappointment!!!

MEDITATION: you're doing it wrong. 'Cuz Buddha says NO! to flame wars and bright-colored all-caps.

(July 30, 2013 at 10:40 am)enrico Wrote: When i said ..........Drugs and chemical reaction affect the brain ok but those effect last as long as the drugs or chemical reaction last which put a time limit to the process.........this was in response to your blabbing when you put chemicals and meditation on the same level.
Chemicals and drugs turn the brain into shit ok. but when you stop using these substances the chemical reaction stop this does not means that in the meantime the brain may have been turned into shit so here i am saying that what is stopping is the chemical reactions not the damage caused to a person mind.

What we are saying is that it is the meditation that produces chemical changes in the brain, not that you need to use drugs and chemical substances to get the effect. You do know that the body produces and reacts to its own chemicals, right? That includes the brain. My question, which you dodged a second time, is how do you tell the difference between the effect of neurochemicals on the brain and an actual "higher consciousness" experience giving you these fuzzy feelings?

bennyboy Wrote:MEDITATION: you're doing it wrong. 'Cuz Buddha says NO! to flame wars and bright-colored all-caps.

Oh, i thought was Christ that say turn the other cheek when someone pester you?
Ok, i will ask Buddha for clarifications.

By the way i do not follow Buddha but i could ask my friend Stimbo how to deal with these pests.

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Stimbo Wrote:What we are saying is that it is the meditation that produces chemical changes in the brain, not that you need to use drugs and chemical substances to get the effect. You do know that the body produces and reacts to its own chemicals, right? That includes the brain. My question, which you dodged a second time, is how do you tell the difference between the effect of neurochemicals on the brain and an actual "higher consciousness" experience giving you these fuzzy feelings?

If you read Abe Alexander book PROOF OF HEAVEN you will find an explanation about it.
This neurosurgeon before his NDE did not believe in higher consciousness and the fact that was possible to experience his own I out his body.
He also explain the difference between experiences with drugs and natural out of body experiences in which everything is clear and focus unlike experiences with drugs.
Now when we talk about neurochemicals on the brain we got to understand the difference between effect caused by drugs and effect caused by natural means because also with drugs you can experience a lot but this come under the term "chemical masturbation".
When you cause effects with drugs you also can go OVER the brain and into consciousness so meditation is not the only way to go into higher consciousness but the chemical masturbation produce terrible effect afterward and to go back to that higher state you got to go back to using more drugs unlike the natural way in which the positive feeling stay with you.
Now it is important to understand that it is not the brain that experience the high consciousness but the real I.
It is like when you ride a vehicle.
The vehicle take you here or there but is you as the driver that enjoy the ride.
So although is the brain that produce all the reaction it is you that enjoy.
In other words is not that there is a difference between.......... the effect of neurochemicals on the brain and an actual "higher consciousness" experience giving you these fuzzy feelings...........but is that brain and consciousness play two separate roles.

If I'm understanding you correctly - and that's one hell of an 'if', under the circumstances - these "higher consciousness" experiences feel to you, from a first-hand perspective, exactly the same as altered brain states resulting from chemical means, whether artificially or naturally induced.

If that is what you're saying, then how can you possibly recognise one from the other? How can you experience one of these alleged episodes and know, either at the time or later, if it's a genuine one and not chemically-induced? Indeed, how do you know that there is in fact a difference at all?

(August 1, 2013 at 5:52 am)Stimbo Wrote: If I'm understanding you correctly - and that's one hell of an 'if', under the circumstances - these "higher consciousness" experiences feel to you, from a first-hand perspective, exactly the same as altered brain states resulting from chemical means, whether artificially or naturally induced.

If that is what you're saying, then how can you possibly recognise one from the other? How can you experience one of these alleged episodes and know, either at the time or later, if it's a genuine one and not chemically-induced? Indeed, how do you know that there is in fact a difference at all?

Deep love and a feeling that you done the right thing.
On the other hand when you get something without having done the hard work you feel a sense of remorse.
A thief can enjoy the loot for a while but not for long.

(August 2, 2013 at 7:37 am)Kayenneh Wrote:

Great...I was trying to read and enjoy my breakfast. Now i need to vomit and I'm scared to use the toilet.

Thanks a shitload, Kaye. <urp>

(August 2, 2013 at 8:00 am)Captain Colostomy Wrote:

(August 2, 2013 at 7:37 am)Kayenneh Wrote:

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Great...I was trying to read and enjoy my breakfast. Now i need to vomit and I'm scared to use the toilet.

Thanks a shitload, Kaye. <urp>

Okay, there needs to be a rule about this? If we can ban pornography in general forums, we can ban other pictures that are likely to induce a strong physical reaction. At the very least, this should be within hide tags with a warning.