(August 8, 2013 at 6:42 pm)Texas Sailor Wrote: Doesn't follow sir.

I'm afraid it does. My reasoning for that is laid out, without, once more, substantive refutation from yourself. Because you say so doesn't cut it I'm afraid. Show me that you can engage your brain and we can move on to other rational problems.

Being able to understand logic=God, the supreme source of all that is logical? (not having a natural brain)
Being able to taste food= God, the supreme source of all that is delicious? (not having a natural tongue)
Being able to smell farts= God, the supreme source of all that is stinky? (not having a natural nose)
Being able to feel torture= God, the supreme source of all that is pain? (not having a nervous system)

I don't know Frodo, sounds like a stretch to me. Or is it a leap?

(August 8, 2013 at 6:29 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: If we state that our subject is supernatural, with what rational authority do you demand physical proof? That was your logical foundation crumbling away.

I just have a problem with the concept of the supernatural. Logically, I can't make sense of it. Don't some Christians believe that there are two sources of revelation: the bible and the natural world. if God created everything, then everything we find in the natural world is more revelation into what God created. If there are aspects of the natural world which we haven't the capacity to perceive, that isn't evidence for a "supernatural" category. There is every reason to believe that even that which we can't directly perceive can yet be detected through it effects, as with gravity. Even a putative God who created everything is knowable indirectly through the study of that which was created. To my mind, that means that even God is natural enough in so far as He can interact with the natural world. What does the word "supernatural" get you in all this?

I see Fr0d0 has been spinning more of his illogical fairy tales for our entertainment.

I thought you were going to say personal revelation for no.2 Whateverist. That's the usual Christian stance.

Sure, God is in everything if he is the source of it/the creator. He is supernatural because he is beyond detection by natural means. Not 'entirely', as we obviously experience what is 'natural'/limited by our nature.
For example timelessness, that we can theorize about, would explain God's omniscience, and perhaps to some extent, creation.
So 'super nature' it's a necessary attribute given our logical model.

Well thanks for trying but "super-natural" still strikes me as really, really natural.

(August 8, 2013 at 7:08 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: I see Fr0d0 has been spinning more of his illogical fairy tales for our entertainment.

Spin being the operative word.

It always sounds like damage control to me...like a speech writer tap dancing for his life to keep his boss in power.

Fr0d0, do you really know that God is the source of your ability to understand logic, or are you just naming things in reality and chalking them up to a God?

Quote: Give me solid facts, or take facts and make clear deductions, and that's something I can work with.

I'll bet you'd shit a brick if we make the same demand about you and your alleged "god."

If you think your ability to understand that which is logical comes from God-the supreme logical being-the same must follow for that which can be understood as illogical. Something being logical or illogical is descriptive of the way we percieve the universe. The universe doesn't function because of logic, thats just the way we make sense of the little bit of it we're exposed to. You've got your work cut out for you if you hope to use our understanding of A being A to point to the Judeo Christian God.

If God exists, you could do this sort of thing much easier. However, you haven't shown that, and that part comes before you get to point to things that you intend to show It is responsible for. You're just skipping to the latter part and hoping we don't mind excusing one little assumption made on your part to get there, which you, personally, seem to have no problem ignoring completely. Sorry.

These are the types of things you're gonna hear Frodo, when you start taking descriptive truths pertaining to how we percieve the universe, and start trying to spin them as prescriptive rules that you want to be given from your God. It doesn't work because it doesn't make any sense.