I have no idea what you're waffling on about Tex.

Do you find the universe to be illogical? Please give examples.

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(August 8, 2013 at 7:16 pm)whateverist Wrote: Well thanks for trying but "super-natural" still strikes me as really, really natural.

If I understand you correctly, I agree.

(August 9, 2013 at 2:25 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I have no idea what you're waffling on about Tex.

Probably because I've misrepresented your views beyond recognition! I need more info!

(August 9, 2013 at 2:25 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Do you find the universe to be illogical? Please give examples.

That's not what I was saying. It sounded like you were saying that your ability to comprehend logic is proof of God because God IS logic. It seemed like you were saying that because I don't believe in God, then I have no authority to ask for logical explanation, as I, myself, don't have a foundation for Logic itself. Am I way off base here?

Frods, please: Actually explain the rationale by which you justify your belief in god.

So far you've claimed that your belief is a rational byproduct of your view of the universe, and is fully supported by the available evidence, but when pressed for details you simply repeat the initial assertion. If a dialogue is going to be had here, you need to present the why for your belief, rather than simply saying that you have one.

(August 9, 2013 at 7:34 am)Texas Sailor Wrote: It seemed like you were saying that because I don't believe in God, then I have no authority to ask for logical explanation, as I, myself, don't have a foundation for Logic itself. Am I way off base here?

Yes. Firstly, this reality is logical. You and I (and scientists who take what we know and project theories that can be inferred in order to know more) can make assumptions on that understanding.

Presuppositionalists attribute logic to God as a workable model. If we found reality to be illogical, we would have to attribute its source to be illogical.

Congratulations, you've just proven an attribute of God to be true

I hear the jack-in-the-box music being wildly cranked, but it seems the clown refuses to come out.

(August 9, 2013 at 12:01 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Presuppositionalists attribute logic to God as a workable model. If we found reality to be illogical, we would have to attribute its source to be illogical.

And...do you consider yourself a presuppositionalist?

(August 9, 2013 at 12:16 pm)Texas Sailor Wrote: And...do you consider yourself a presuppositionalist?

Only on a good day when I can find my false teeth.

Logic is descriptive of the universe. As thinking beings, logic describes the universe in such a way that we can make sense of it.

We are able to reflect, and logic is the mechanism through which this is done.

We are able to experience different scents, and smell is the mechanism through which this is done.

Logic, is a method, and all signs point to a natural one at that. What is the point of saying that God is the source of logic? Isn't that really just an aside for saying-God is the source of man? Secondly, isn't that the question at hand? You seem to be answering the question with the same question, over and over again.

Is God the source of smell? The method for recognizing that something has a particular scent? Is there a model for that?

In response to the OP, my deconversion didn't begin with the internet, it began when I examined the religion into which I was born. I think the last straw was reading the book by Christopher Hitchens "God Is Not Great". He nailed the issue of religion right on the head, and everything else was downhill from there.

We agree on an attribute of God, so can move on to another truth. Stack 'em up and knock 'em down.

You asked for an example and how it was arrived at, and you got it.

Clue: this isn't the whole deal. There's more.