(August 26, 2013 at 11:09 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: And we'll be happy to review those books that the Vatican has locked away. However, we cannot presume to know an unknown. To say that there is for a certainty a library of writings concerning Christ is fallacious, as you don't know exactly what those texts talk about. All you can do is speculate, and it's getting you no further than you were a few moments ago.

Do a google search, the whole library is not unknown. The majority of it is accessable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Library
75,000 manuscripts (the largest collection in the world)
And over a million books.

Again to dismiss this wealth of knowledge just because of its location is pure foolishness

(August 27, 2013 at 8:39 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: No we're not. Keep repeating yourself though, see if it has an effect on reality like you think.

There is quite a big topic here discussing who Jesus really was is he wasn't God incarnate in the flesh. You're not discussing who Mohammed really was if he wasn't really a prophet of God. So that's just the case in point, you have some work to get on with.

(August 27, 2013 at 5:32 am)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(August 27, 2013 at 12:17 am)Minimalist Wrote: Foolish believers making shit up about a mythic person is not history. No one in the first century heard of the fucker. In the early second century tales started spreading about a Christos and only later did someone attach the name "Iesou" to it. Why? Who knows. We'd all be better off if they hadn't.

Actually no the first letters written by Saint Paul were written around 50 AD and there was already a Jewish/Christian community established there. Non-Christian sources don't try to deny that Jesus ever existed either they just claim that he was a charlatan and black magic user. You can say he existed but deny him as a fool if you like you have that option certainly.

Minnie does not care about facts SoC. he is just interested in conjecture and wishful speculation. He just plays to the crowd.

(August 27, 2013 at 9:04 am)Drich Wrote: Minnie does not care about facts SoC. he is just interested in conjecture and wishful speculation.

Even if that was true, how does that excuse your usage of same?

In other words, why should your brand of conjecture be elevated over others?

(August 27, 2013 at 8:35 am)Rationalman Wrote:

(August 27, 2013 at 8:31 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: This is the thing you see, atheists/non-Christians are challenged to find an alternative explanation for Jesus. No-one is challenged to find an alternative explanation for Mohammed or Joesph Smith.

Well i don't know enough about Mohammed to comment but I can be pretty certain when I say joseph smith was a liar, plain and simple. He translated tablets which no one ever saw into 17th century English when he lived in the 19th century. All it takes is a bit of critical thinking to debunk Joseph smith

Also you seam to forget he sat with his head in a hat lol. Like what a crock. I asked the Mormons for a book just to read their fairy tale and y know what I got a fucking tract every day from them / harassment at my front door and still no mormon bible!

With regards to Mohammed again similar story to Jesus though Mohammed actually told people Jesus was only a Prophet which makes more sense all around. He also taught the Doctorine that Allah / God / YHWH is the only person with Authority and the only God in existance and is not shared with anyone.

Also with regards to the Christians watching this forum. Did you know that according to Islam its an 'Unforgivable Sin' to believe/pray/worship anyone but God!

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(August 27, 2013 at 9:01 am)Drich Wrote:

(August 26, 2013 at 11:09 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: And we'll be happy to review those books that the Vatican has locked away. However, we cannot presume to know an unknown. To say that there is for a certainty a library of writings concerning Christ is fallacious, as you don't know exactly what those texts talk about. All you can do is speculate, and it's getting you no further than you were a few moments ago.

Do a google search, the whole library is not unknown. The majority of it is accessable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Library
75,000 manuscripts (the largest collection in the world)
And over a million books.

Again to dismiss this wealth of knowledge just because of its location is pure foolishness

@Dirich the vatican library is not open to anyone. Only the Archivists have true access everyone else has to know the name of the book and the specific page they want to view. This is then run past the Head Archivist who approves or disapproves of the viewing. It is then presented opened for the person to study under the watchful eye of Vatican Security Staff.

No one has public access to the Secret Archives only the parts that the vatican wants people knowing are available which nullifies the idea of them being secret!

The above sounds more like JWs than Mormons. They are supposed to give a Book of Mormon to someone for free if they ask for it. If they didn't, then they probably weren't really Mormons.

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Actually, how long ago was it that you had your run-in with the Mormons? They don't hand out tracts nowadays, but 20-30 years ago that's all they ever did.

(August 27, 2013 at 9:04 am)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(August 27, 2013 at 8:39 am)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote: No we're not. Keep repeating yourself though, see if it has an effect on reality like you think.

There is quite a big topic here discussing who Jesus really was is he wasn't God incarnate in the flesh. You're not discussing who Mohammed really was if he wasn't really a prophet of God. So that's just the case in point, you have some work to get on with.

Have you had a look at the Islam section of this forum? Similar claims and similar refutations.

This thread sounds like an exercise in history and anthropology, not really to provide an alternative such that we can logically reject the bible's version (that is what I understood you were trying to say, am I mistaken?).

(August 27, 2013 at 9:38 am)Captain Colostomy Wrote:

(August 27, 2013 at 9:04 am)Drich Wrote: Minnie does not care about facts SoC. he is just interested in conjecture and wishful speculation.

Even if that was true, how does that excuse your usage of same?

In other words, why should your brand of conjecture be elevated over others?

'conjecture' ceases to be conjecture when tied to reference material.
That is why I am constantly leaving links like this one: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conjecture

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(August 27, 2013 at 9:47 am)themonkeyman Wrote:

(August 27, 2013 at 8:35 am)Rationalman Wrote: Well i don't know enough about Mohammed to comment but I can be pretty certain when I say joseph smith was a liar, plain and simple. He translated tablets which no one ever saw into 17th century English when he lived in the 19th century. All it takes is a bit of critical thinking to debunk Joseph smith

Also you seam to forget he sat with his head in a hat lol. Like what a crock. I asked the Mormons for a book just to read their fairy tale and y know what I got a fucking tract every day from them / harassment at my front door and still no mormon bible!

With regards to Mohammed again similar story to Jesus though Mohammed actually told people Jesus was only a Prophet which makes more sense all around. He also taught the Doctorine that Allah / God / YHWH is the only person with Authority and the only God in existance and is not shared with anyone.

Also with regards to the Christians watching this forum. Did you know that according to Islam its an 'Unforgivable Sin' to believe/pray/worship anyone but God!

---

(August 27, 2013 at 9:01 am)Drich Wrote: Do a google search, the whole library is not unknown. The majority of it is accessable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Library
75,000 manuscripts (the largest collection in the world)
And over a million books.

Again to dismiss this wealth of knowledge just because of its location is pure foolishness

@Dirich the vatican library is not open to anyone. Only the Archivists have true access everyone else has to know the name of the book and the specific page they want to view. This is then run past the Head Archivist who approves or disapproves of the viewing. It is then presented opened for the person to study under the watchful eye of Vatican Security Staff.

No one has public access to the Secret Archives only the parts that the vatican wants people knowing are available which nullifies the idea of them being secret!

Holy crap!

And you guys consider yourselves to be independant 'thinkers.' Ever heard of google sport? Maybe try checking your facts before you post.

http://www.vatican.va/library_archives/

just follow the links

What's Google sport? Google maps, Google translate and Google images I've heard of and can see a use for.

(August 27, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Drich Wrote: 'conjecture' ceases to be conjecture when tied to reference material.

Thanks for the assist. A definition you linked to is 'inference based on defective evidence'. Your main reference material is the bible. Need I say more?

Also, I decided not to go after your use of the word 'independant'. What is that....what a fly caught in amber jewelry says?