(September 24, 2013 at 6:15 pm)genkaus Wrote: I think you are reaching for conclusions way beyond what available evidence implies.

First of all, I see no analysis of any language structure.

The method and the example of reasoning is given in my publication "Bit from it or it from bit"

(September 24, 2013 at 6:15 pm)genkaus Wrote: Secondly, there may be no actual connection between the cow-horns and the moon. An equally valid hypothesis is that in the ancient agricultural societies cows were one of the few domesticated animals which were the source of food and labor. Thus they became associated with the idea of a "provider" and therefore "divine". Nothing to do with moon at all.

There is a bunch of folkloric refranes in any culture where the cow is identified as the moon. I will give Russian and you can find same English for sure:

White-headed cow in the doorway watching.
The bull in the yard - the horns on the wall.
Bald bull looks through the gate.
Without the head, and with horns.
To be born with horns, then they lose.

All these about the moon.



As the reference, you can read Rig-Veda – the ancient text known to humanity and you will see many allegories, where the moon is fully recognizable.
I will give short example:

Moving at morning like two chr-borne heroes, like to a pair of goats ye come electing;
Like two fair dames embellishing their bodies, like a wise married pair among the people.
Like to a pair of horns come first to usward, like to a pair of hoofs with rapid motion;
Come like two Cakavas in the grey of morning, come like two chariot wheels at dawn, ye Mighty.
Bear us across the rivers like two vessels, save us as ye were yokes, naves, spokes and fellies.
Be like two dogs that injure not our bodies; preserve us, like two crutches, that we fall not.
Like two winds ageing not, two confluent rivers, come with quick vision like two eyes before us.
Come like two hands most helpful to the body, and guide us like two feet to what is precious.
Even as two lips that with the mouth speak honey, even as two breasts that nourish our existence,
Like the two nostrils that protect our being, be to us as our ears that hear distinctly.

Goats (horned animals), horns, wheels, vessels, yokes, naves, spokes, fellies, eyes, hands, feet, lips, breasts, nostrils, ears.
All this objects can be logically connected only on one possible basis – The Moon.



Because this is the only object in the sky with shapes thet can be presented as a semicircle and circle at the same time. And it can be observed by any man without using special tools.

I can give you another nice example:
What Americans do in Thanksgiving Day?
They break the wishbone. The tradition of breaking the wishbone comes from Europe, and is thousands of years older.



Look at this type of bird's bone. Geometrically its shape correlates with the shape of horns and other above noted objects. This is the angle.
By the way, the Hebrew word “karan”, which is used in the Bible for describing the Mosses state when he left the god on the Zion mounting. This word means “angle”, “beam”, “horn”.
That is why the Mosses is portrayed with horns on his head:



It is also noticeable that “karan” phonetically corresponds with Koran - well known holy book of people those symbol is the crescent itself.
Also the crescent is represented in Bible as the head-stuff which god told to Mosses to craft for the costume of archpriest Aaron.

(September 24, 2013 at 6:15 pm)genkaus Wrote: Regardless, even if your hypothesis was true, the concept of god has developed way beyond that idea. Which means whatever the ancient civilizations regarded as god or gods is no longer applicable today. Therefore, arguing against an outdated notion of god would not prove the "atheistic idea".

Does the Bible give "an outdated notion of god"?

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(September 25, 2013 at 1:28 am)max-greece Wrote: Its possible you have reasons from your research which you haven't yet shared but these seem to be a great many assumptions in what you have presented thus far. Take, for example:

"For example, Jesus resurrection is the allegory of every month phenomenon of “dying moon”. Before appear in form of young crescent the moon is not visible in the sky for 3 days."

The general explanation I have seen for this myth is that it is based on the seasonal die of crops in winter that magically come back in the spring (the time of Jesus' resurrection).
This is in-line with the Jewish passover celebration at the same time. When Jews move to the unleavened bread bit they are supposed to clean out their houses of all the old food (leavened bread from last year) and, after the passover move back to the normal diet but only on this year's foods.
Having said that the Jewish calendar is a lunar one.

There are many territories in the world where winter never comes and climate never changes from one season to another. In addition, due to archeological investigations the humanity came especially from that places.
The Easter like holydays are common to all territories in the world.
And as it was correctly noted, the date of Easter is calculated by Jewish lunar calendar. They were waiting for first new moon after spring Equinox.
It was 13th new moon of lunar year and it was also first new moon of coming year. That is why Jesus is called first and last in the Bible – Alpha and Omega.
The tradition with bread can be also connected with another allegory of Jesus represented in the Bible: The bread of heaven.
The bread as allegory of Jesus-moon is widely used due to the form of bread which was originally cooked by ancient people. It was round.
At the picture below, you can see Jesus’s symbols. The cup and the bread represent crescent like semicircle shape. 12 Apostols symbolize 12 lunar months and the Jesus symbolized 13th month. And New Year (ear)

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(September 25, 2013 at 3:55 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: The major flaw in your, um, thesis is that atheism needs to be "proven" in the first place. Atheism is a default stance taken when no evidence of any gods has ever been shown to exist. Furthermore, the fact that many gods have been invented by man's imagination throughout history means that unless someone can show evidence of the Judeo-Christian god, then most likely it is yet another imaginary god which was invented by man. At any rate, anyone claiming a god's existence must show proof, not the atheist who doesn't believe in it.

The thesis of proving the atheistic idea is used to present the opening within the atheistic forum. In deed the idea is much wider and touches verity of science directions and human history facts.
The moon is the key object which our biocomputers have started to use for programming itself. It is the 1 and 0 which we used to program the computers developed by us.


* left is the symbols used in Kannada – one of the ancient scripts in the world.

Glad there is more to it that was indicated from your opening post. Should be an interesting read.

This is like reading a conspiracy theory. A lot of text signifying nothing.

(September 26, 2013 at 2:25 pm)Monolens Wrote: The method and the example of reasoning is given in my publication "Bit from it or it from bit"

Summarize it.

(September 26, 2013 at 2:25 pm)Monolens Wrote: There is a bunch of folkloric refranes in any culture where the cow is identified as the moon. I will give Russian and you can find same English for sure:

White-headed cow in the doorway watching.
The bull in the yard - the horns on the wall.
Bald bull looks through the gate.
Without the head, and with horns.
To be born with horns, then they lose.

All these about the moon.

Are they? How do you know?

(September 26, 2013 at 2:25 pm)Monolens Wrote: As the reference, you can read Rig-Veda – the ancient text known to humanity and you will see many allegories, where the moon is fully recognizable.
I will give short example:

Moving at morning like two chr-borne heroes, like to a pair of goats ye come electing;
Like two fair dames embellishing their bodies, like a wise married pair among the people.
Like to a pair of horns come first to usward, like to a pair of hoofs with rapid motion;
Come like two Cakavas in the grey of morning, come like two chariot wheels at dawn, ye Mighty.
Bear us across the rivers like two vessels, save us as ye were yokes, naves, spokes and fellies.
Be like two dogs that injure not our bodies; preserve us, like two crutches, that we fall not.
Like two winds ageing not, two confluent rivers, come with quick vision like two eyes before us.
Come like two hands most helpful to the body, and guide us like two feet to what is precious.
Even as two lips that with the mouth speak honey, even as two breasts that nourish our existence,
Like the two nostrils that protect our being, be to us as our ears that hear distinctly.

Goats (horned animals), horns, wheels, vessels, yokes, naves, spokes, fellies, eyes, hands, feet, lips, breasts, nostrils, ears.
All this objects can be logically connected only on one possible basis – The Moon.

Because this is the only object in the sky with shapes thet can be presented as a semicircle and circle at the same time. And it can be observed by any man without using special tools.

Or they could be things farmers see everyday. Is there any indication that these things are being used as allegories for moon?

(September 26, 2013 at 2:25 pm)Monolens Wrote: I can give you another nice example:
What Americans do in Thanksgiving Day?
They break the wishbone. The tradition of breaking the wishbone comes from Europe, and is thousands of years older.

Look at this type of bird's bone. Geometrically its shape correlates with the shape of horns and other above noted objects. This is the angle.

Does it? Because I looked at the pictures given above and saw little resemblance.

(September 26, 2013 at 2:25 pm)Monolens Wrote: By the way, the Hebrew word “karan”, which is used in the Bible for describing the Mosses state when he left the god on the Zion mounting. This word means “angle”, “beam”, “horn”.
That is why the Mosses is portrayed with horns on his head:

And?

(September 26, 2013 at 2:25 pm)Monolens Wrote: It is also noticeable that “karan” phonetically corresponds with Koran - well known holy book of people those symbol is the crescent itself.
Also the crescent is represented in Bible as the head-stuff which god told to Mosses to craft for the costume of archpriest Aaron.

I still don't see this to mean that they regard that crescent as god.

(September 26, 2013 at 2:25 pm)Monolens Wrote: Does the Bible give "an outdated notion of god"?

Well, yes. But that's not the subject under discussion.

(September 24, 2013 at 2:24 pm)Monolens Wrote: Hi!
As was announced in introduction I 'm ready to present the scientific method to prove atheistic idea.

My investigation, which took 4 years, was an analysis of human language structure. By using the tools of reverse engineering and statistic big data analysis, I was able to find the correlations inherent in any language.
I have started to understand the deepest algorithmic structure of human language. With time, I understood the reason of existence of such logic structure.
I have performed tests with using of found correlations and received relatively limited amount of meanings, which were:

The ship, the horns, the cow, the cat, the fish, the horse, the god, the circle, the water

In the mean time I was reading many historical and religious books and I was excited when one by one this limited set of meanings started to appear in most of human religions.
The most significant example is the cow which image is widely used in any continent.

Sumerian – Sacred bull.
Ancient Egypt - the celestial cow Nun.
The Slavs - heavenly divine cow Zimun.
Hinduism - Sacred Cow, lunar god Soma.


The reason why the cow is so common and sacred is the shape of its horns, which was traditionally identified with the horns of crescent moon.

The Moon is the object, which ancient people were identifying as the god. It can be found in different forms in any world religion.
To continue previous example:

Islam - whose symbol is the crescent.
Christianity - the fish. The cross with crescent. The semicircle nimbus. Jesus is called Alpha. Alpha means “bull”.
Judaism – horned Moses, golden calf.
Freemasonry - angle, compass, the moon-shaped letter G.
Buddhism - the full moon day is celebrated each month. “Buddha” means enlightened. Also has a semicircle nimbus and shows horns by his hand.
Wicca - Lunar religion led by the horned god.



There are also many linguistic correlations, which can be discussed in case of interest.

So I came to the conclusion that all human religions came from very ancient belief, that the Moon is the god. This misunderstanding has occurred due to limited or none knowledge about the nature of our satellite.
As we still have very low information about this object, our ancient ancestors were only able to guess what is the creature, which is present everyday during all their lives. And their guesses generated the new entity which we know as the god.

Thank you for attention!
Looking to hear your opinions about above.

I mean this with all humility...


It took you 4 years to come up with this?

I do not have anything against your research, but at the same time I do not have anything for it. Somewhat of a neutral feeling with a lot of skepticism.

(September 27, 2013 at 6:02 am)genkaus Wrote: Are they? How do you know?

These texts are taken from the Russian book with compilation of old Russian folks.
You can read the original here

This is not something I know. These are allegories which recorded by scientists from the original keepers - old people over Eurasia.

(September 27, 2013 at 6:02 am)genkaus Wrote: Or they could be things farmers see everyday. Is there any indication that these things are being used as allegories for moon?

According to texts those allegories are spoken to the sky. And they where pronounced in the night time.
What yoke can farmer see night time in the sky? What else in night sky can be recognised as the ship?

I understand your antagonism, but it should not close your eyes against the logic.
And again I point your attention that I came to discribed semantic core not by reading antient books. I did the computer analysis of our language and received it. After I was surprised that same core appears in mostly all ancient texts.

(September 27, 2013 at 6:02 am)genkaus Wrote: Does it? Because I looked at the pictures given above and saw little resemblance.

Please look at the following picture and solve the logic puzzle. Which shapes are more close to each other? Above or below?
All the objects from text have little resemblance with each other on same basis. Its boat-like shape. And all these object an author of texts could see in the night sky. Can you give your opinion of what he was seeing there?

(September 27, 2013 at 6:02 am)genkaus Wrote: And?

And the above stated means that Moses is the allegory of the Moon. If you remember Moses came to his kingmother in a small boat. The boat is another moon allegory as already mentioned.
Also you can compare the name MoSeS with Russian name of crescent moon - MeSyaC. It is completely phonetically same.
So many coincidences can't be just coincidences.

(September 27, 2013 at 6:02 am)genkaus Wrote: I still don't see this to mean that they regard that crescent as god.

In the Bible god says to Moses to produce crescent shaped stuff and put it on the head of priest, to remember the god everytime he wears this stuff. Isn't it enouph to understand that god wants people to remember its shape?

I can give you another good example from the Bible.
When Noah sees the reinbow in the sky the god speaks to him with covenant that everytime when Noah or his tribe will see the rainbow they will remind the god.
Do I need to tell that the shape of rainbow is same as the shape of crecsent?

(September 27, 2013 at 6:02 am)genkaus Wrote: Well, yes. But that's not the subject under discussion.

I can try to summarize my essay with example of language reasoning. You will be able to solve the puzzle yourself and come to predicted results.
Please give as more words as you know which have structure same to given before word "karan". Vowels can be any and consonants must follow the initial structure. For example: CRaNe, CRowN, GReeN and so on. You can give the word from any language used by human.
I predict that all words that you will give will have in its etymology or meaning the above mentioned shapes: angle, horn, beam.
And they will come to previously mentioned semantic core: cow, fish, god, HoRN, boat.
The main distinction of successful scientific theory is the predicting power. You can check yourself that given theory has ultimate predicting power.

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(September 27, 2013 at 1:19 pm)gall Wrote: It took you 4 years to come up with this?

It took thousands years before somebody understood what is really going on about religion.
4 years were spent for collecting facts, which confirm found correlation. You can refer to my main publication “Lingvogeometry or the history of evolution of one mem”.
It is in Russian.

There is the fresh example of logical chain:

"crescent" etymology comes from PIE root *ker- "to grow".
You understand that crescent is growing.
Now compare this word to the word “credit”. Phonetically both words are very close.
And semantically, as credit nature is the amount money which are growing.
But “credit” etymology comes from PIE compound *kerd-dhe- "to believe"
Everybody knows that in god we trust.
Now take another related word – “loan”. Coinciding this word is phonetically same as the word “luna” which means the moon in Latin language.

Reference: http://www.etymonline.com

(September 27, 2013 at 1:44 pm)Monolens Wrote: These texts are taken from the Russian book with compilation of old Russian folks.
You can read the original here

This is not something I know. These are allegories which recorded by scientists from the original keepers - old people over Eurasia.

Don't read Russian. Sorry.

Anyway, you still haven't shown that these are allegories about moon.

(September 27, 2013 at 1:44 pm)Monolens Wrote: According to texts those allegories are spoken to the sky. And they where pronounced in the night time.
What yoke can farmer see night time in the sky? What else in night sky can be recognised as the ship?

Do better research next time.

These hymns are addressed specifically to Ashvins - twin gods symbolizing sunrise and sunset.

You missed a much bigger and more obvious clue here - the repeated use of "two". And most of the allegories here are things that come in pairs. That the prayer was addressed to the skies means nothing - since that's where all the gods supposedly reside.

(September 27, 2013 at 1:44 pm)Monolens Wrote: I understand your antagonism, but it should not close your eyes against the logic.
And again I point your attention that I came to discribed semantic core not by reading antient books. I did the computer analysis of our language and received it. After I was surprised that same core appears in mostly all ancient texts.

No antagonism here. I just see you reaching for conclusions. I can get behind the idea that there are semantic similarities between ancient texts of different groups. I can even accept that some of their core ideas may appear to be similar and that there would be quite a few recurring elements. All that is to be expected. But reducing it to the simplistic conclusion that "All ancients thought moon was god and anything crescent-shaped was divine" is, frankly, a big leap not supported by logic.

(September 27, 2013 at 1:44 pm)Monolens Wrote: Please look at the following picture and solve the logic puzzle. Which shapes are more close to each other? Above or below?
All the objects from text have little resemblance with each other on same basis. Its boat-like shape. And all these object an author of texts could see in the night sky. Can you give your opinion of what he was seeing there?

The one below. The steeper U-shape of the bottle resembles the wishbone more closely than the boat.

Of the objects given in the text, greater resemblance come from them existing as pairs than from the imaginary "boat-shape". And what he was seeing in the sky was the paired events of sunrise and sunset.

(September 27, 2013 at 1:44 pm)Monolens Wrote: And the above stated means that Moses is the allegory of the Moon. If you remember Moses came to his kingmother in a small boat. The boat is another moon allegory as already mentioned.
Also you can compare the name MoSeS with Russian name of crescent moon - MeSyaC. It is completely phonetically same.
So many coincidences can't be just coincidences.

This is precisely why I compared your theory to a conspiracy theory. It is not even a significant incident - much less a coincidence. The moon-landing conspiracy theory has stronger evidence than this.

Just because you claim boat is an allegory to moon doesn't make it so.
There is very little phonetic similarity between Moss and Mesyac.
Further, the "horn" misinterpretation is easily explained by the same word meaning two different things in the same language - a common occurrence in any language.

(September 27, 2013 at 1:44 pm)Monolens Wrote: In the Bible god says to Moses to produce crescent shaped stuff and put it on the head of priest, to remember the god everytime he wears this stuff. Isn't it enouph to understand that god wants people to remember its shape?

I've seen no reference to this crescent shaped staff. So, no, this statement means nothing.

(September 27, 2013 at 1:44 pm)Monolens Wrote: I can give you another good example from the Bible.
When Noah sees the reinbow in the sky the god speaks to him with covenant that everytime when Noah or his tribe will see the rainbow they will remind the god.
Do I need to tell that the shape of rainbow is same as the shape of crecsent?

Sorry, but a rainbow is not a crescent. Your argument would've meant something if god had spoken to Noah when he saw the crescent moon - but doing so with a rainbow signifies nothing.

(September 27, 2013 at 1:44 pm)Monolens Wrote: I can try to summarize my essay with example of language reasoning. You will be able to solve the puzzle yourself and come to predicted results.
Please give as more words as you know which have structure same to given before word "karan". Vowels can be any and consonants must follow the initial structure. For example: CRaNe, CRowN, GReeN and so on. You can give the word from any language used by human.
I predict that all words that you will give will have in its etymology or meaning the above mentioned shapes: angle, horn, beam.
And they will come to previously mentioned semantic core: cow, fish, god, HoRN, boat.
The main distinction of successful scientific theory is the predicting power. You can check yourself that given theory has ultimate predicting power.

Your own examples of Crane and green fail your test.
Other examples include crone, caravan, Karn (sanskrit) and Karin (Japanese).

Monolens, what current applications exist for the methodology you are using?

(September 27, 2013 at 9:51 pm)genkaus Wrote: Don't read Russian. Sorry.
Anyway, you still haven't shown that these are allegories about moon.

In this case you have to believe me. The link I gave you is the collection of folklore quests about the moon. In text there are many allegories like: bull, horns, milk cup, cheese, bread, plate.
And these quests are pointed to children. Russian children understand those simple allegories, but you – aged man - don’t?
If somebody will ask you the quest like: round white bread coming night time to the sky. You will not be able to understand that the quest is about the moon?

(September 27, 2013 at 9:51 pm)genkaus Wrote: Do better research next time. These hymns are addressed specifically to Ashvins - twin gods symbolizing sunrise and sunset.
You missed a much bigger and more obvious clue here - the repeated use of "two". And most of the allegories here are things that come in pairs. That the prayer was addressed to the skies means nothing - since that's where all the gods supposedly reside.

For sure it is easy to read someone’s comments and argue by it. Did you read Rig-Veda yourself?
If you’d read it you will understand that singing of hymns according to text was done mostly night time. Not in sunset, not in sunrise. There were waiting only for one object, which appears in the night. They were doing fireplaces that time to make worship. If you come to modern India you will see that mostly all festivals take place in the night.
Regarding two objects. I did not miss it. I was waiting for somebody to ask
It is very very easy. They did not see two objects. They were seeing the object itself and its reflection in the water.
Get back to your opinion that Ashvins are sunset and sunrise. How you can logically connect mentioned objects to the sun? The boat for example. Or the horn. Or the ear.
Interesting.

(September 27, 2013 at 9:51 pm)genkaus Wrote: No antagonism here. I just see you reaching for conclusions. I can get behind the idea that there are semantic similarities between ancient texts of different groups. I can even accept that some of their core ideas may appear to be similar and that there would be quite a few recurring elements. All that is to be expected. But reducing it to the simplistic conclusion that "All ancients thought moon was god and anything crescent-shaped was divine" is, frankly, a big leap not supported by logic.

If you will go deeper you will see that this simple answer is universal and correct.
Did you ever think about why the rabbit is the symbol of Easter? Just read this Wiki story about how worldwide cultures separately came to one common conclusion that rabbit is moon animal.
You know why they did so? Because they were seeing themselves the rabbit on the moon. Tell them that this idea is so simple that can be truth
This tradition can be found in every continent.

(September 27, 2013 at 9:51 pm)genkaus Wrote: The one below. The steeper U-shape of the bottle resembles the wishbone more closely than the boat.
Of the objects given in the text, greater resemblance come from them existing as pairs than from the imaginary "boat-shape". And what he was seeing in the sky was the paired events of sunrise and sunset.

Agree with you about bottle U-shape. The example was to show how close that shape of boat to the shape of wishbone.
I have to tell you that when I received first result of research I was sure that everything I get is about the sun. It is stated in my book. But I was doubt about U-shape which was appearing in my investigations many times. I have started to think that the allegory of sunrise and the difference of sun level is the origin of such results. I live in Ukraine where the moon is coming in the sky in form of C letter. Thus I could not think that it can be different.
When I went to Sri Lanka, one night I look in the sky and I get the real answer why there so many U-shapes appear. The moon was turned the way it forms U shape. This was a great insight. In one second I understood what was the object which I met during investigation.
The point is that closer to equator the moon is turning during the night. In Sri Lanka it turns up to 90 degrees during one night. So you can see C-shape, U-shape and even “roof” shape there.
In Russian “roof” is translated as “krisha”. You can see the correlation to “crescent” and “Christ”

(September 27, 2013 at 9:51 pm)genkaus Wrote: There is very little phonetic similarity between Moss and Mesyac.

MSS and MSS in both words. It’s not little. It is full compliance in terms of phonetics.
I can add the Hebrew name of Jesus. “Messiah”. Same MSS you can find here.

(September 27, 2013 at 9:51 pm)genkaus Wrote: Further, the "horn" misinterpretation is easily explained by the same word meaning two different things in the same language - a common occurrence in any language.

Sure, in case there is only one misinterpretation. However, there are many examples. It is what is called the correlation. As a scientist, I understand that any correlation can be explained not in terms of accident happening, but in terms of law.

(September 27, 2013 at 9:51 pm)genkaus Wrote: I've seen no reference to this crescent shaped staff. So, no, this statement means nothing.

Please read this text (Exodus 28:36):
And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and engrave upon it, like the engravings of a signet: HOLY TO THE LORD.
And thou shalt put it on a thread of blue, and it shall be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.
And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, and Aaron shall bear the iniquity committed in the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow, even in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.

This golden plate is usually imaged as a crescent on the head of Aaron.
Becouse in original Hebrew Bible the word which is used to name it is צִּיץ (tseets) and it is translated as wreath, crown, diadem or wings.
All this objects have same shape which is correctly pictured as a crescent:
[img]www.lingvogeometry.org/images/theeth.png[/img]

Did you ever think why priest’s hat – mitra has horned form? Think about it.

(September 27, 2013 at 9:51 pm)genkaus Wrote: Sorry, but a rainbow is not a crescent. Your argument would've meant something if god had spoken to Noah when he saw the crescent moon - but doing so with a rainbow signifies nothing.

God told Noah that he will remind god every time when he will see the rainbow. The form of rainbow is very close to the form of crescent:

Isn’t it?
By the way, do you know that the Bible is written about the moon from the first words? To hide this fact they had to include the appearance of sun two times into text.

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(September 27, 2013 at 10:05 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Monolens, what current applications exist for the methodology you are using?

As the result of my opening, I received two possible applications:

1. Universal translator. The program, which can translate any language to English, for example, without using the dictionary of initial language.
2. The algorithm of compressing the text information 3 times effective then ZIP, RAR algorithms.

Regarding the methodology. It helps to discover human history and properties of ancient stories without breaking of Occam's razor principle.