(October 20, 2013 at 8:52 pm)John Gray Wrote: To Deny the existence of God is to accept the categories [framework] of monotheism.

First assertion: Not all atheists have been religious, not all atheists have been monotheists. Second assertion: Actually, very few completely dismisses the possibilities of gods, it's just that sufficient evidence is still lacking.

Quote:As these categories fall into disuse, unbelief becomes uninteresting.

Unbelief is uninteresting, what of it?

Quote:Atheists say they want a secular world, but a world defined by the absence of the Christian God is still a Christian world.

Third assertion: Not every atheist have been a christian, and thousands of millions of muslims, hindus and taoists disagree that it's a christian world.

Quote:Secularism is like chastity, a condition defined by what it denies. If atheism has a future, it can only be in a Christian world.

Fourth assertion, and this passage needs most definitely some elaboration.

Quote:Atheism is a late bloom of a Christian passion for truth.

Fifth assertion: Atheism is nothing more than the lack of belief in any gods. Having a "passion for truth" is not a requirement.

Quote:No Pagan is ready to sacrifice the pleasure of life for the sake of mere truth.

Sixth assertion: Who said that truth and pleasure are mutually exclusive?

Quote:The long delayed consequence of Christian faith was an idolatry of truth that found its most complete expression in Atheism."

Complete and utter bullshit.

arvind13 Wrote:Hi guys. I just joined this forum. I thought this quote was fascinating and would be interesting to reflect upon and discuss about.

Welcome to AF! We don't get that many pagans around here

(October 20, 2013 at 10:13 pm)Minimalist Wrote: This is why I despise philosophers. Pointless rambling about inconsequential nonsense.

I can second that. The only philosopher I know to use her powers for good and actually come to useful conclusions with philosophical musings, is Apophenia.

I wonder what an atheist from India would think about this...

(October 21, 2013 at 4:02 am)pocaracas Wrote: I wonder what an atheist from India would think about this...

He thinks Arvind is peddling bullshit.

(October 20, 2013 at 8:52 pm)arvind13 Wrote: Here is an interesting quote from philosopher John Gray from his book Straw Dogs:

"To Deny the existence of God is to accept the categories [framework] of monotheism. As these categories fall into disuse, unbelief becomes uninteresting. Atheists say they want a secular world, but a world defined by the absence of the Christian God is still a Christian world. Secularism is like chastity, a condition defined by what it denies. If atheism has a future, it can only be in a Christian world.

Atheism is a late bloom of a Christian passion for truth. No Pagan is ready to sacrifice the pleasure of life for the sake of mere truth. The long delayed consequence of Christian faith was an idolatry of truth that found its most complete expression in Atheism."

Hi guys. I just joined this forum. I thought this quote was fascinating and would be interesting to reflect upon and discuss about.

I deny the Gods of countless contradictory religions, including those with many Gods. Christians have never really had much use for truth. The contradictions of their religion are just brushed aside with bad rationalizations. Archaeology's demonstration, that the exodus and conquest of Canaan and all the theology based on this myth is nonsense and never happened is just ignored. The failed miracle promises, the failed prophecies. Ignored. So many strawmen, so little time.

And no Mr. Gray, its an Islamic world. Isn't making trollish assertions such grand fun?


You are a philosopher you say? Or did you mean degreed troll?

There is nothing so absurd that it has not been said by some philosopher.
Cicero - De Divinatione




.

(October 20, 2013 at 8:52 pm)arvind13 Wrote: Here is an interesting quote from philosopher John Gray from his book Straw Dogs:

"To Deny the existence of God is to accept the categories [framework] of monotheism. As these categories fall into disuse, unbelief becomes uninteresting. Atheists say they want a secular world, but a world defined by the absence of the Christian God is still a Christian world. Secularism is like chastity, a condition defined by what it denies. If atheism has a future, it can only be in a Christian world.

Atheism is a late bloom of a Christian passion for truth. No Pagan is ready to sacrifice the pleasure of life for the sake of mere truth. The long delayed consequence of Christian faith was an idolatry of truth that found its most complete expression in Atheism."

Hi guys. I just joined this forum. I thought this quote was fascinating and would be interesting to reflect upon and discuss about.

Essentially the only thing worth it about this quote is that, basically, yes, Atheism is only around because Theism is. If we havn't thought up of Gods, Devils and Saviours, we'd have no need to object or conclude "lack of evidence" in debating their existance.

Besides that single point, the entire quote is a massive assumption. He claims being Atheist (or anyone without a belief in the supernaturally divine) eventually gets bored or stagnates. That's... far from the truth.
In the Bible (since Mr John LOVES to use Christianity as his foundation here, so will I), all of your answers are laid out. Everything you need to know, is written. And what you stll don't know? Is also written. Yeah, saying crap like "unfathomable", "timeless" "god works in mysterious ways". You can ponder all you wan't, but you'll never achieve any success in reaching any conclusions.
But in an Atheistic view, which usually falls on science to explain reality? They are learning all the time. EVERYTHING is mysterious but it isn't kept from you. And no scientist ever started with a book saying "yup, I did this shit in 6 days... had to watch the game and drink a six pack on the 7th". All that is discovered now, you can still recreate or prove yourself. Don't need to just, blindly follow some poetic texts.

Second point, I don't know what he means by "late bloom" but I hope this guy isn't referring to literal history. There were Atheistic systems far before Christianity. And you may say "ok, but obviously they didn't work out if even now, Atheism isn't as dominate as a younger theism". I'd say it's the opposite. It's been around that long because it DOES work out. It's just that most people want things the easy way... religion is the easy well. The test score paper filled out, multiple choices bubbles etched in an everything.
Atheism not only doesn't give you many answers, but requires you to "write out the problem" when you're seeking those answers. Why?
Because you always have to prove how you got the answer you did.
Yup. Life is hard. Real life that is.

(October 20, 2013 at 8:52 pm)arvind13 Wrote: Here is an interesting quote from philosopher John Gray from his book Straw Dogs:

"To Deny the existence of God is to accept the categories [framework] of monotheism. As these categories fall into disuse, unbelief becomes uninteresting. Atheists say they want a secular world, but a world defined by the absence of the Christian God is still a Christian world. Secularism is like chastity, a condition defined by what it denies. If atheism has a future, it can only be in a Christian world.

Atheism is a late bloom of a Christian passion for truth. No Pagan is ready to sacrifice the pleasure of life for the sake of mere truth. The long delayed consequence of Christian faith was an idolatry of truth that found its most complete expression in Atheism."

Hi guys. I just joined this forum. I thought this quote was fascinating and would be interesting to reflect upon and discuss about.

Since people have been denying the existence of gods long before Christianity came along, I think that this Gray fellow is just another typically pathetic Christian apologist.

P.s hi

(October 20, 2013 at 8:52 pm)arvind13 Wrote: Here is an interesting quote from philosopher John Gray from his book Straw Dogs:

"To Deny the existence of God is to accept the categories [framework] of monotheism. As these categories fall into disuse, unbelief becomes uninteresting. Atheists say they want a secular world, but a world defined by the absence of the Christian God is still a Christian world. Secularism is like chastity, a condition defined by what it denies. If atheism has a future, it can only be in a Christian world.

Atheism is a late bloom of a Christian passion for truth. No Pagan is ready to sacrifice the pleasure of life for the sake of mere truth. The long delayed consequence of Christian faith was an idolatry of truth that found its most complete expression in Atheism."

Hi guys. I just joined this forum. I thought this quote was fascinating and would be interesting to reflect upon and discuss about.

Oh joy, another philosopher word salad. Not really that different from the garden variety forum troll, but with better spelling.

Since when has Christianity ever had a passion for truth. Rather it has had a passion for contradictory mythology, particularism, heresy hunts, crusades, religious wars, censorship and splitting up into battling sects.

Truth became something men valued with the coming of philosophy. Mankind has been stumbling towards that ideal since Thales. To give credit to Christianity for that and ignoring the pre-Socratic Greeks is simply a perverse sort of ignorance.

Welcome to our little corner of truth seekers, Arvind13.

"There is nothing so absurd that it has not been said by some philosopher.
-- Cicero De Divinatione (Book II


.

Reading it looks like the person is just making things more complicated than they need to be. There's a quote that sums up my thoughts nicely:

Quote:Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.

E. F. Schumacher

Though I could be giving him too much credit there. Einharjar hit the nail on the head about the only valid point being made and all that's doing is pointing out the painfully obvious.

Quote:"To Deny the existence of God is to accept the categories [framework] of monotheism.

That's brilliant.

To claim a lactose intolerance is to accept cheddar.

(October 20, 2013 at 8:52 pm)arvind13 Wrote: Atheism is a late bloom of a Christian passion for truth.

Atheism has been around for as long as the claim that gods exist has been. Long before Christianity.

"Among the six orthodox schools of Hindu philosophy, Samkhya, the oldest philosophical school of thought, does not accept God, and the early Mimamsa also rejected the notion of God.The thoroughly materialistic and anti-theistic philosophical Cārvāka (also called Nastika or Lokaiata) school that originated in India around the 6th century BCE is probably the most explicitly atheistic school of philosophy in India, similar to the Greek Cyrenaic school (435 BCE)."