(November 18, 2013 at 5:02 am)genkaus Wrote: Here's the reason why the objective/subjective distinction is more than just semantics and not just a matter of perspective.

If god exists the way he is described, then everything is existence is subjective - i.e. determined by is will - and therefore, subject to alteration on a whim. Our agreement - or even judgment - never enters the picture. If the rules were objective, we could figure them out - we could figure out why things work in a particular way and reliably use that understanding in future judgment. We'd expect things to act consistently and not change arbitrarily. We'd expect them to measure up to the standards of logic and rationality - because that is how objectivity works. But, since they are subjective, all that goes right out the window.

You can't do math if God exists? Gravity is no longer measurable. Squares can have 7 sides? Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together. mass hysteria!?

(November 19, 2013 at 3:16 pm)wallym Wrote: You can't do math if God exists? Gravity is no longer measurable. Squares can have 7 sides? Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together. mass hysteria!?

Precisely.

(November 20, 2013 at 5:16 am)genkaus Wrote:

(November 19, 2013 at 3:16 pm)wallym Wrote: You can't do math if God exists? Gravity is no longer measurable. Squares can have 7 sides? Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together. mass hysteria!?

Precisely.

Ka-WHAT? hock:

wallym, if this seems to not make sense to you it is because IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!

Morals are objective because of God, not despite Him. If every moral you come to is solely found "within yourself" that would be the definition of subjective - based on personal tastes. Subject to change on a whim.

Saying that morals are subjective because God decided them is dragging the concept of God down to an animal level. God is not a dictator. God is not a human. His decisions do not happen in the same way we make decisions.

You said that you were a Catholic. Have you looked into the Catechism of the Catholic Church? It lays it out there.

Ummm...god is an amoral douche, and his sheeple use subjective morality when it suits them.

(November 18, 2013 at 1:53 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote: He's saying we're not the same as other animals (you conveniently cut out the part of his post where he explained), in the sense that we have introspection, reasoning and such.

(November 18, 2013 at 2:20 am)Lion IRC Wrote: No. It clearly says "are not animals"

genkaus Wrote:I'm flattered. I didn't expect to be quote-mined before I was famous.

I didn't "conveniently" cut out the bit about introspection and reasoning.
Is someone claiming animals don't have the sentient ability to reason?

http://animalwise.org/2011/10/07/analogi...n-animals/

(November 20, 2013 at 5:47 am)Captain Colostomy Wrote: Ummm...god is an amoral douche, and his sheeple use subjective morality when it suits them.

Well, I can't speak for the "sheeple" that you mentioned, but I am wondering where objective morals come from without a God?

Without a soul, isn't man an animal enslaved by the chemical reactions that cause his instincts?

(November 20, 2013 at 6:02 am)GodsRevolt Wrote:

(November 20, 2013 at 5:47 am)Captain Colostomy Wrote: Ummm...god is an amoral douche, and his sheeple use subjective morality when it suits them.

Well, I can't speak for the "sheeple" that you mentioned, but I am wondering where objective morals come from without a God?

Without a soul, isn't man an animal enslaved by the chemical reactions that cause his instincts?

So if I suddenly go daft and believe in a soul, problem solved? How the hell you get that? Besides, it isn't as you say. Search morality on this forum...it's been done(to death?) as of late. Your pious human/hairless mindless ape options are amusing, but mistaken.

(November 20, 2013 at 6:24 am)Captain Colostomy Wrote:

(November 20, 2013 at 6:02 am)GodsRevolt Wrote: Well, I can't speak for the "sheeple" that you mentioned, but I am wondering where objective morals come from without a God?

Without a soul, isn't man an animal enslaved by the chemical reactions that cause his instincts?

So if I suddenly go daft and believe in a soul, problem solved? How the hell you get that? Besides, it isn't as you say. Search morality on this forum...it's been done(to death?) as of late. Your pious human/hairless mindless ape options are amusing, but mistaken.

Well, the objective godless argument sinks before it hits the pond. Everyone figures out their own morals? From deep inside them? Like, "I don't know, its just hard to explain. I know it to be true and so it is for me."

What does that sound like to you? Like someone talking about GOD?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:40 am)GodsRevolt Wrote:

(November 20, 2013 at 5:16 am)genkaus Wrote: Precisely.

Ka-WHAT? hock:

wallym, if this seems to not make sense to you it is because IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!

Morals are objective because of God, not despite Him. If every moral you come to is solely found "within yourself" that would be the definition of subjective - based on personal tastes. Subject to change on a whim.

Saying that morals are subjective because God decided them is dragging the concept of God down to an animal level.

No, it's merely pointing out that divine "morality" is NOT objective merely because it comes from outwith humanity. It's SUBJECT to the will of God.

Quick question:

Are God's commands moral?

(November 20, 2013 at 5:16 am)genkaus Wrote:

(November 19, 2013 at 3:16 pm)wallym Wrote: You can't do math if God exists? Gravity is no longer measurable. Squares can have 7 sides? Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together. mass hysteria!?

Precisely.

Of course, the laws of objectivity would also be subject to God's will, so whatever logic you're trying to apply may or may not count? So maybe it is objective, because God says that's what objectivity is?

In fact, all rational and logical arguments would go out the window, because if there happened to be a God, they may no longer be rational or logical based on various whims?