(December 19, 2013 at 6:14 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(December 19, 2013 at 12:15 pm)Manowar Wrote: He is Commander-in- chief, He knows the risks of what can and already has happened and still has drones fire away, and people wonder why America is so hated.

manowar

America is hated because others have short memories. Those drones you are hating on have brought terrorism by some groups to its knees. War is always a trade off with the innocent paying a high price for the betterment of many others, just as any justice system, innocent people will pay a price for the betterment of the country's fight against crime. It's not perfect but then what is.

GC

Well fuck me, I'm on GC's side (ish) for once! War is indeed a trade-off, and no action is ever really without collateral damage. Given that none of us know what the implication of not doing these strikes would have been, it is hard for us to weigh the consequences against the objective. What if the strikes have prevented five or ten or fifty more 9/11 like attacks?

(December 20, 2013 at 9:43 am)A Theist Wrote: I don't know about Barako being guilty of war crimes, but he is guilty of being a lying asshole!

Yeah, that sure sets him apart from the rest of the population. And to think we elected him to be a paragon of virtue. I am so dissapointed. [/sarcasm]

I'm not qualified to make the call about him being an asshole. You, on the other hand, are abundantly qualified. Too bad I can't trust you to be objective in this case.

(December 20, 2013 at 11:10 am)whateverist Wrote:

(December 20, 2013 at 9:43 am)A Theist Wrote: I don't know about Barako being guilty of war crimes, but he is guilty of being a lying asshole!

Too bad I can't trust you to be objective in this case.

Too bad I really don't give a shit what your pompous ass thinks.

Quote:Those drones you are hating on have brought terrorism by some groups to its knees.

Fuck you, G-C. If Mexico fired a drone into the US because it was going after some drug gang you'd sprain your fucking shoulders waving the flag for war with Mexico.

You people are so full of shit.

(December 20, 2013 at 11:02 am)Duck Wrote: Well fuck me, I'm on GC's side (ish) for once! War is indeed a trade-off, and no action is ever really without collateral damage. Given that none of us know what the implication of not doing these strikes would have been, it is hard for us to weigh the consequences against the objective. What if the strikes have prevented five or ten or fifty more 9/11 like attacks?

That's nice and all, but you're weighing "what if's" against knowns. Who's to say that one of those drone strikes that killed an innocent child may have saved five American lives? We don't know that it didn't, but what we do know is that our campaign is taking the lives of innocents. It's awfully arrogant(and easy to do when it's not your family) to simply chalk that up as the price of war. Asshole terrorists targeting us doesn't justify willingly engaging in tactics that take innocent lives.

Try to imagine how you would feel if you and your family were just trying to have a peaceful existence but lived in constant fear from Canadian drones killing one of your relatives. And to top it off, the Canadians see you as a justifiable loss.

Sure, we need to combat terrorism to save Americans, but willingly taking innocent foreign lives in order to prevent a hypothetical American death is not something my conscience will let me live with.

(December 20, 2013 at 12:44 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(December 20, 2013 at 11:02 am)Duck Wrote: Well fuck me, I'm on GC's side (ish) for once! War is indeed a trade-off, and no action is ever really without collateral damage. Given that none of us know what the implication of not doing these strikes would have been, it is hard for us to weigh the consequences against the objective. What if the strikes have prevented five or ten or fifty more 9/11 like attacks?

That's nice and all, but you're weighing "what if's" against knowns.....

Sure, we need to combat terrorism to save Americans, but willingly taking innocent foreign lives in order to prevent a hypothetical American death is not something my conscience will let me live with.

911 was once a "hypothetical", a "what if"...As Duck pointed out,

Quote:War is indeed a trade-off, and no action is ever really without collateral damage.

911 changed a lot of things for America. Terrorists have declared a jihad against the United States, against Israel, and against the West. We in turn declared war against Terrorist forces. We're in a state of war. Innocent lives are lost in the crossfire but we're not "willingly" taking those innocent lives as you claim. Imagine if you lost your family in a terrorist attack because we didn't weigh the hypothetical against the consequences. Could your conscience let you live with that?

(December 20, 2013 at 4:17 pm)A Theist Wrote: 911 changed a lot of things for America. Terrorists have declared a jihad against the United States, against Israel, and against the West. We in turn declared war against Terrorist forces. We're in a state of war. Innocent lives are lost in the crossfire but we're not "willingly" taking those innocent lives as you claim. Imagine if you lost your family in a terrorist attack because we didn't weigh the hypothetical against the consequences. Could your conscience let you live with that?

Your problem is that you're trying to justify the killing of innocents with the creation of a false dichotomy. The issue isn't either kill terrorists with drone strikes even though we are well aware that innocents are easily killed in the process, or allow things like 9/11 to happen. Yes, we should be vigilant against those that wish to harm us, but if we allow ourselves to justify the taking of innocent lives in the process, we become no better than those we seek to protect ourselves against.

(December 20, 2013 at 4:34 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(December 20, 2013 at 4:17 pm)A Theist Wrote: 911 changed a lot of things for America. Terrorists have declared a jihad against the United States, against Israel, and against the West. We in turn declared war against Terrorist forces. We're in a state of war. Innocent lives are lost in the crossfire but we're not "willingly" taking those innocent lives as you claim. Imagine if you lost your family in a terrorist attack because we didn't weigh the hypothetical against the consequences. Could your conscience let you live with that?

Your problem is that you're trying to justify the killing of innocents with the creation of a false dichotomy. The issue isn't either kill terrorists with drone strikes even though we are well aware that innocents are easily killed in the process, or allow things like 9/11 to happen. Yes, we should be vigilant against those that wish to harm us, but if we allow ourselves to justify the taking of innocent lives in the process, we become no better than those we seek to protect ourselves against.

Quote: Yes, we should be vigilant against those that wish to harm us,

We act with the best information we have. Unfortunately, sooner or later, innocent lives are going to get caught in the crossfire. But if you have access to privileged information on the actual whereabouts of the terrorists who are trying to kill us maybe you can share it with our military so innocent lives can be saved. Otherwise, I don't see you offering a better and viable option to keeping our country safe from terrorist attacks.

(December 20, 2013 at 4:51 pm)A Theist Wrote: We act with the best information we have. Unfortunately, sooner or later, innocent lives are going to get caught in the crossfire. But if you have access to privileged information on the actual whereabouts of the terrorists who are trying to kill us maybe you can share it with our military so innocent lives can be saved. Otherwise, I don't see you offering a better and viable option to keeping our country safe from terrorist attacks.

Any option that doesn't create a higher than normal risk of taking innocent lives is better than this one.

I'm certainly no military man, nor do I have a working solution for the problem, but that does not mean that I should settle for a callous campaign that raises the chances of children being killed. One of the keys to any military operation should be to clearly identify the enemy and ensure that no innocents will be harmed in the process, and I do not accept that a system in which the inability to do so is a viable option, no matter how successful it may be.

(December 19, 2013 at 10:50 am)Manowar Wrote: This guy has killed innocent men, women and children with his drones. I think a few days ago a wedding party in Yemen was bombed by accident.
He should be held accountable.

manowar

He is Just doing his job