Oh ffs. Eat what you want. Cows, sheep, dogs, fish, chicken, cats, shellfish, goats, or bloody aborted foetuses for all I care. Just don't judge me for not eating them or other people for eating them.
I'd rather people didn't eat meat if they didn't need to, but it's none of my bloody business what other people are eating as long as it isn't me (don't go there lol).

(January 15, 2014 at 6:29 am)Aractus Wrote:

(January 15, 2014 at 4:38 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: However the pack (or lack of) is part of the environment.

Wow, in that case, why did u bring it up?

Sorry, i'm not following you

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(January 15, 2014 at 6:48 am)là bạn điên Wrote: You are really claiming that most people in the world HAVE to eat animals?

Yes I am. Protein is an important part of the diet. Unfortunately, a lot of the people in this world do not have the money or resources to replace animal protein with protein from other sources. If everyone in the world stopped eating animals, a lot of people would die, let alone suffer from the effects of a diet without enough protein.

(January 15, 2014 at 6:48 am)là bạn điên Wrote: Inflicting pain for your personal pleasure is certainly NOT necessary

At what point did I say it was for my own personal pleasure? Listen, whenever they come up with a sustainable source of protein that is not from animal meat, and it tastes as good as animal meat, i'm all for it. However the fact is, even if everyone stopped eating animals, what the hell would we do with them. What the fuck are cows useful for if not meat, leather and milk? We can't just let them roam around free. The same goes for goats, sheep, chickens, pigs. If farmers aren't making a profit out of the live stock, they aren't going to pay to keep the animals. And we can't set them free to wander around, it would decimate the eco-system and throw the whole thing out of balance.
Do you resent the lion for slowly choking the life out of the wildebeest? Cause they inflict a lot of pain. What about hyenas eating their prey alive? We are in the same position as the lion, in the fact that we depend on animals for food. The only difference is, we are smart enough to realise that suffering is bad and we can do all we can to minimise it.

(January 15, 2014 at 7:38 am)Sejanus Wrote: If you provide some way, some test to determine objectively which organisms can feel pain and which can't and then abstain from eating those that do, I'll be persuaded to think vegetarians aren't just cherry picking their favourite organisms. So far I'm not buying it.

Well I stay on the safe side and eat no animals at all even Mollusucs that i am petty damn sure can;t feel pain if it is fauna then I don't touch it.

Quote:Oh I see. You're conflating "has a face" with "can feel pain", because us humans have faces and we use them to convey emotion. Way to go.

You see wrong then. I use ' have a face' as a synonym for fauna. I don't eat fauna at all. To feel pain you must have a brain .

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(January 15, 2014 at 8:31 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: Yes I am. Protein is an important part of the diet. Unfortunately, a lot of the people in this world do not have the money or resources to replace animal protein with protein from other sources. If everyone in the world stopped eating animals, a lot of people would die, let alone suffer from the effects of a diet without enough protein.

That is utter utter bullshit. Meat is expensive everywhere in the world when compared to plant based foods in the poorest countries people eat very little meat because it is so expensive to produce. It is vastly cheaper to get your protein from plant based sources whioch is what most people do

Quote:At what point did I say it was for my own personal pleasure? Listen, whenever they come up with a sustainable source of protein that is not from animal meat, and it tastes as good as animal meat, i'm all for it.

You have just proved my point. You stated 'and testes as good as meat' so it is for your personal pleasure

Quote:However the fact is, even if everyone stopped eating animals, what the hell would we do with them.

We wouldn't breed any more

Quote: What the fuck are cows useful for if not meat, leather and milk? We can't just let them roam around free. The same goes for goats, sheep, chickens, pigs.

As I said we would have no more domesticated animals.

Quote: If farmers aren't making a profit out of the live stock, they aren't going to pay to keep the animals. And we can't set them free to wander around, it would decimate the eco-system and throw the whole thing out of balance.

yes - no more farm animals

Quote:Do you resent the lion for slowly choking the life out of the wildebeest? Cause they inflict a lot of pain. What about hyenas eating their prey alive?

Lions have to eat meat -all cats do and lions have not the moral capability that humans have.

Quote:We are in the same position as the lion, in the fact that we depend on animals for food.

No we don't we don;t need animals at all

Quote:The only difference is, we are smart enough to realise that suffering is bad and we can do all we can to minimise it.

Which is what I do.

(January 15, 2014 at 9:52 am)là bạn điên Wrote: You see wrong then. I use ' have a face' as a synonym for fauna. I don't eat fauna at all. To feel pain you must have a brain .

Is it okay to eat Mike the Headless chicken, the chicken that survived because its brain stem was intact after a failed decapitation, but its cerebral cortex, the part of the brain that deals with pain, among other things, was lost at the failed decapitation?
"Since basic functions (breathing, heart-rate, etc.) as well as most of a chicken's reflex actions are controlled by the brain stem, Mike was able to remain quite healthy. This is a good example of central motor generators enabling basic homeostatic functions to be carried out in the absence of the cerebral cortex." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_the_Headless_Chicken

(January 15, 2014 at 9:52 am)là bạn điên Wrote:

(January 15, 2014 at 7:38 am)Sejanus Wrote: If you provide some way, some test to determine objectively which organisms can feel pain and which can't and then abstain from eating those that do, I'll be persuaded to think vegetarians aren't just cherry picking their favourite organisms. So far I'm not buying it.

Well I stay on the safe side and eat no animals at all even Mollusucs that i am petty damn sure can;t feel pain if it is fauna then I don't touch it.

Quote:Oh I see. You're conflating "has a face" with "can feel pain", because us humans have faces and we use them to convey emotion. Way to go.

You see wrong then. I use ' have a face' as a synonym for fauna. I don't eat fauna at all. To feel pain you must have a brain .

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(January 15, 2014 at 8:31 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: Yes I am. Protein is an important part of the diet. Unfortunately, a lot of the people in this world do not have the money or resources to replace animal protein with protein from other sources. If everyone in the world stopped eating animals, a lot of people would die, let alone suffer from the effects of a diet without enough protein.

That is utter utter bullshit. Meat is expensive everywhere in the world when compared to plant based foods in the poorest countries people eat very little meat because it is so expensive to produce. It is vastly cheaper to get your protein from plant based sources whioch is what most people do

Quote:At what point did I say it was for my own personal pleasure? Listen, whenever they come up with a sustainable source of protein that is not from animal meat, and it tastes as good as animal meat, i'm all for it.

You have just proved my point. You stated 'and testes as good as meat' so it is for your personal pleasure

Quote:However the fact is, even if everyone stopped eating animals, what the hell would we do with them.

We wouldn't breed any more

Quote: What the fuck are cows useful for if not meat, leather and milk? We can't just let them roam around free. The same goes for goats, sheep, chickens, pigs.

As I said we would have no more domesticated animals.

Quote: If farmers aren't making a profit out of the live stock, they aren't going to pay to keep the animals. And we can't set them free to wander around, it would decimate the eco-system and throw the whole thing out of balance.

yes - no more farm animals

Quote:Do you resent the lion for slowly choking the life out of the wildebeest? Cause they inflict a lot of pain. What about hyenas eating their prey alive?

Lions have to eat meat -all cats do and lions have not the moral capability that humans have.

Quote:We are in the same position as the lion, in the fact that we depend on animals for food.

No we don't we don;t need animals at all

Quote:The only difference is, we are smart enough to realise that suffering is bad and we can do all we can to minimise it.

Which is what I do.

Do you realize how many heritage breeds & other breeds of animals that took thousands of years to cultivate are to history & culture? We should just let them die out? I myself am hugely interested in chickens, they are one of my favorite animals. Do you understand how many years of selective breeding it took to produce the wonderful variety of chicken breeds we have today? I am against factory farming, & one of the reasons is that the cornish game hybrids are wiping out heritage breeds, but you just want to throw thousands of years of human history & culture out?

I gladly eat (free-range) chickens, & to be opposed to any form of animal agriculture is an extreme position.

God vegans are so fucking stupid. Animals eat other animals, that is how the world works. That is how the earth is sustained. That is how life has worked for hundreds of millions of years. We are animals and we evolved as omnivores needing both meat and plants to survive.
What pisses me off even more than vegans are vegetarians who eat fish. Because fish are not a type of meat?
I mean if you're going to be an idiot, at least commit to it.

Interesting question. Would you rather have a short life followed by the slaughterhouse, or no life at all because farm animals don't exist any more.

9 out out 10 cows we interviewed said "mooo". The other said "moooooo". Because cows are not given to introspective philosophy over whether life with pain is inherently preferable to no life at all. As such, their views can probably be safely ignored.

(January 15, 2014 at 9:52 am)là bạn điên Wrote: That is utter utter bullshit. Meat is expensive everywhere in the world when compared to plant based foods in the poorest countries people eat very little meat because it is so expensive to produce. It is vastly cheaper to get your protein from plant based sources whioch is what most people do

Tell that to the indigenous hunters in the amazon. Tell that to the remnants of the tribes of the Native Americans. You know why they ate meat? Because it was all they had.

(January 15, 2014 at 9:52 am)là bạn điên Wrote: You have just proved my point. You stated 'and testes as good as meat' so it is for your personal pleasure

Hahah nice try but no. You said I inflict pain for my personal pleasure. Eating an animal does not constitute as inflicting pain on it. Killing the animal does not constitute as inflicting pain on it.

Quote:However the fact is, even if everyone stopped eating animals, what the hell would we do with them.

(January 15, 2014 at 9:52 am)là bạn điên Wrote: We wouldn't breed any more

Quote: What the fuck are cows useful for if not meat, leather and milk? We can't just let them roam around free. The same goes for goats, sheep, chickens, pigs.

(January 15, 2014 at 9:52 am)là bạn điên Wrote: As I said we would have no more domesticated animals.

Quote: If farmers aren't making a profit out of the live stock, they aren't going to pay to keep the animals. And we can't set them free to wander around, it would decimate the eco-system and throw the whole thing out of balance.

(January 15, 2014 at 9:52 am)là bạn điên Wrote: yes - no more farm animals

I can tell from your responses that you really haven't thought this through have you?

(January 15, 2014 at 10:43 am)EgoRaptor Wrote: Do you realize how many heritage breeds & other breeds of animals that took thousands of years to cultivate are to history & culture? We should just let them die out? I myself am hugely interested in chickens, they are one of my favorite animals. Do you understand how many years of selective breeding it took to produce the wonderful variety of chicken breeds we have today?

So keep some 'heritage farms' open so people come come and see them

Quote: I am against factory farming, & one of the reasons is that the cornish game hybrids are wiping out heritage breeds, but you just want to throw thousands of years of human history & culture out?

yes I also want to throw out slavery and....religion- they are also based on thousands of years of culture and history

Quote:I gladly eat (free-range) chickens, & to be opposed to any form of animal agriculture is an extreme position.

So? Being opposed to Slavery used to be an extreme position...and then it wasn't. being Atheist was an extreme position -now it isn't

(January 15, 2014 at 11:28 am)là bạn điên Wrote:

Quote:I gladly eat (free-range) chickens, & to be opposed to any form of animal agriculture is an extreme position.

So? Being opposed to Slavery used to be an extreme position...and then it wasn't. being Atheist was an extreme position -now it isn't

Yea, your comparisons would work if being opposed to slavery and being an atheist didn't make sense and wasn't logical. Being opposed to any form of animal agriculture is an extreme position and will remain that way because it is not logical or practical to conduct. We get a hell of a lot of our clothing from animals and we get a lot of our food from animals. How would we keep up with clothing and material demands if we didn't use animals? How would the world feed itself if we didn't eat animals? Short answer: a lot of people would starve to death because there simply isn't enough vegetables and plants to eat and share with every other herbivore (whose populations would spike rapidly seeing as we aren't eating any) which would only make the problem worse.