Christ-less countries seem to do a lot better in equality, as well as non violence and other things. Sure, about a fourth of the population seems to think the bible leads to Jesus, but can't decide on how. I have heard of the effects christianity has on the world, such as genocide and discrimination and many bad things. Like I said, your god doesn't seem to be good at getting his message across, and I don't buy the whole incomprehensible deity dodge. If he's so incomprehensible that even devout followers will fight and kill over the proper way to worship him, he's incompetent and there's nothing you can say to ensure the public that he's any better than anyone else. You can't say he's impossible for us to understand, but also inherently good.

There have been studies that say less religious countries tend to do better than more religious countries. I'm not just pulling these idea out of my ass when I say that religion does more harm than good.

You can't just blame everything on the followers. Some responsibility must be laid on the leader. Yahweh is supposed to be the leader. The shepherd. Yet his flock is not as one, meaning he's not doing his job. It's not just like the idea of the prodigal son. It's that there is seemingly a thin thread connecting these billions of people, and they don't know who their shepherd is. They know his name, supposedly, but they don't know what he looks like, or what he really wants, or how best to follow him. If they did, they wouldn't be divided.

(March 3, 2014 at 5:49 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: I agree with all you say, but...you seem to defend the Bible as a book that exemplifies a moral code of conduct. The men spoken of that are held up as "Prophets" are some of the most bigoted, depraved men in history. (should they have truly existed and are not fictional characters)

I believe the Bible does exemplify a moral code of conduct. Revelation is progressive and this must be remembered.

The Bible was not written all at once, but was compiled over a period of some 1500 years. The Bible is not "a book" but a library (biblios) of 66 books written, on three continents, in at least 3 languages, by different types of people.

The Bible is in large part, a compilation of the history of the Jewish nation.

I believe all of the men actually existed and I have no reason to think they were fictional.

You say that the prophets were depraved and bigots. Well, do you have someone specifically in mind?

When I look at the prophets I see men. Ordinary men with all of their weaknesses, failings, and faults. I see young men and I see old men. I see men who made many mistakes and suffered for the sins they committed. Solomon and Moses come to mind. David too.

You see the Bible does not portray these men as perfect. They werent! They were far from it actually. Moses was a murderer. Paul persecuted Christians and had em thrown in Jail. Elijah asked God to just go ahead and take him because he was afraid. Thomas was your run of the mill skeptic. Judas betrayed Christ, Peter denied Him three times....David committed adultery and then had a man killed to cover it up. Jonah ran from God because he did not want God to be merciful to the people of Ninevah!

But guess what? This encourages me! It lets me know that God does'nt need someone to be perfect before He can use them. He does not ask me to get perfect and then pray to Him. He comes to these men just as they are and raises them up and changes them and uses them and shows them the right way to live. He uses them to accomplish His work and in so doing, these men are changed. Fundamentally changed by this awesome and mysterious working of God in them. Through these men, God reaches people. He warns of coming destruction so that people will change their minds and change the way they are living. God is long suffering and patient and not willing that any perish but that all should come to repentance so He sends these ordinary men and performs miracles through them so that people will see and turn from their wickedness. Many of these prophets ended up dying. They died so that others might live. These plain, ordinary men who had doubts and fears just like you and I have became mighty men of God and are remembered for this. We speak their names even today....thousands of years after they died. Women too! Mighty women of God who stood so tall above all their peers because they were raised up by God. I think of Deborah and Mary, Rebekah and Rachel, Ruth and Esther who was willing to die so that her people might live. In return for her faith she was raised up and made a Queen.

I think of the women who gave their life in the service of others. Then and even now. Much of the work of God that has been done and that is happening in the world today would not be possible if it were not for the strong, Godly, women who were willing and even now are laying down their lives for the sake of love. They stand so tall above all others and with this heavenly perspective they are able to see them that are downcast and helpless and homeless. I think of women like Mother Teresa and Eglantyne Jebb. Mighty women of God who literally impacted the lives of millions all because they had a love that burned within their hearts so strongly that it threatened to consume them...

Much could be said, and I could go on for hours of their mighty exploits...

(March 3, 2014 at 5:49 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: If a person professes himself to be a Christian, he supports the Bible, in all of its confusion and depravity. Of course excusing it as a book that takes the moral high ground.

I stand by the Bible 100%. I am at times confused by some of it no doubt. And it records many depraved acts. It contains the account of the fall of man into sin and therefore I am not surprised when I read of how men can hate one another and treat one another shamefully and kill one another and do all manner of evil against each other.

The most depraved act recorded no doubt would be when Jesus's own people had Him crucified. Think of it! I scarce can take it in and my mind reels at the fact that even in the midst of it all, Jesus prayed that they be forgiven for they knew not what they were doing.....

That right there did it for me when I was searching for the truth.... when I came upon that account, I knew right then that this man, this Jesus.....something was special about Him. Something was fundamentally different than any other man I had ever read about or had ever met.

I think that no one other than God could have uttered those words.

(March 3, 2014 at 5:49 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: If God exists, he isn't the version portrayed as a petulant child as the Bible depicts. If God exists, he isn't a bigot or a racist or a misogynist.

You are so right. More than you know.

God is none of those things.

(March 3, 2014 at 5:49 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: The Bible was created by men to control other men. (and women)

I think the more you honestly and sincerely look at it, specifically the life of Jesus as recounted in the gospels, you will come to find a person so lovely, so pure, so humble, so meek, so gentle, and so strong that you will not be able to help but fall in love with Him.

I pray you come to know Him.

(March 3, 2014 at 5:49 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: My opinion, fwiw. I do appreciate your respectful tone in discussing this, though. :-)

All that I have endured here in this forum has been worth it because it has led me to be able to talk with you.

discipulus, I was once like you. I did believe as you do. Even how you interpret things, and explain, it sounds familiar to how I once was, when it came to 'defending' Christianity. But, perhaps, all along...I was skeptical? I don't know. I grew up in the Christian faith, and spent years praying, reading the Bible, and seeking 'solace' in 'God.' It felt genuine to me at the time. What caused me to ultimately abandon the faith, wasn't anything on an emotional level. Rather, it started to unravel when I realized that Genesis wasn't to be taken literally. Many fundamentalist Christians take it literally, I wasn't a 'fundie.' lol Genesis is not truth, discupulus. It's just not. There has been plentiful evidence to point towards the theory of evolution. Genesis runs counter to that. Even if I view it as a mere moral story, I don't understand why we need such a story. Why do we make up stories about gods that we don't see? Why do we believe stories in a book, that have no basis in reality? Why do we need a Savior? Why would a Deity create a ''fallen'' creation?

And if the writers of the Bible, made up Genesis, what else have they made up? You can't cherry pick your way through the Bible, and still call yourself a Christian. Many do, but that's not being true to the faith. I spent years cherry picking. It is far better to be 100% invested or not. As an Agnostic, I no longer have to cherry pick. I don't believe in Christianity, yet I am open to the idea that a Deity, of some type, may exist. I simply no longer find the need to determine it though, one way or the other.

It's not enough to say ''Well, God's mind is not ours. God's ways are not our ways.'' It's not enough for me to just go along with a story, that seems to run counter to equality for all. I think Jesus may have existed a historical figure of some type (who knows?), but not the way the Bible depicts him.

The Bible has been the cornerstone for so much historical violence. You can say, well...those people (like Constantine, for example) misinterpreted Scripture for his own empire, his own gain. But, a lot of people are misinterpreting the Bible, then and now. It really isn't misinterpreted. Is it? Paul was a sexist. Meanwhile, Jesus spoke more to women than men, about his teachings. Then, Paul comes on the scene, and runs counter to that, implying that women are to basially stay quiet and not be in leadership roles in the church. This very thinking is running many households and churches today, in the name of Christianity. Many Christians talk about the Bible, as 'the greatest love story ever told.' For who?

If I were to remain a Christian still, I'd have to make a lot of excuses for a book I follow. For rules I follow. I'd have to believe that God is this sadist, yet loving Being. The OT was a foreshadowing of the NT. It can't be ignored, just because Jesus came on the scene.

I could go on for a long time too, see?

So, I ask you. And maybe this isn't the thread to ask you, but I want to know...how do you reconcile the Bible with science? With the theory of evolution? With REALITY?

You do seem to love your faith. You do seem, genuine about it. I once was too, and so...I can sense that right away. (as opposed to trolls who come and go here, and really just want to bait atheists/agnostics into discussions that go nowhere)

(March 3, 2014 at 5:29 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: OK, I'm done trying to have an honest discussion about religion with you because you're not discussing anything honestly. However, I can't resist setting you straight on this point:

(March 3, 2014 at 10:12 am)discipulus Wrote: The bible condemns lustful acts and warns that allowing lust to consume you can only ultimately end up hurting you. This is not controversial unless you feel that acting upon lust is somehow beneficial. A position I have yet to see rationally defended.

Well then, you haven't spoken with very many people on the subject, at least none outside the prudish and hypocritical circles of Christianity.

Lust itself isn't bad nor is acting on it between consenting adults necessarily bad.

True, there are bad stories you can tell about lust, ones that involve for example stalking, harassment, deception or callousness. This only means that stalking, harassment, deception or callousness are bad. The logical fallacies here are over-reliance on anecdotal evidence and assumption of correlation proving causation, a.k.a. "post hoc ergo propter hoc". In this case, the latter fallacy is expressed as, "Here are stories about lust and deception; therefore lust involves deception"

Let me personal about this. I've had what I've called "dear friends", and have since learned that the colloquial is "friends with benefits." At all times that I've indulged in casual sex or in sex with friends-but-not-a-committed-relationship, whatever you call it, I've always made sure to use protection, avoid deception and respect the rights of the other.

On one occasion, the "lustful" sex was quite therapeutic for the other. She was a divorced woman. I didn't ask the details but I gathered it was a nasty one. She was not ready for another relationship and made that clear to me. We kept in touch as friends by email for a while afterwards. She told me how I showed her such a romantic time and helped her to heal. Last I heard, she was getting married having found a better man than before. I was happy for her and wished her well.

The rules I follow in and out of the bedroom are simple:
1. Act with integrity
2. Respect the rights of others
3. Take responsibility for your actions

These are simple rules of morality. Stay within these bounds and you can lust all you like.

Rational enough for you?

You and I will disagree on this and that is fine.

I have much to say on the subject and may do so in a separate thread if I have time.

As a side note, Christianity isn't the only religion I have an issue with...it's all of them. They all contradict one another, each religion's 'Deity' or set of deities, have the 'final say.' This tells me that religion has become man's way of explaining, what science cannot YET explain. And maybe never will explain. Not everything is explainable. Or will be.

I'm finally okay with that. ''I don't know,'' is more comforting to me now from a scientific perspective, than ''God did it.'' (when truly, NO ONE knows that with certainty one way or the other)

(March 3, 2014 at 7:01 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: discipulus, I was once like you. I did believe as you do. Even how you interpret things, and explain, it sounds familiar to how I once was, when it came to 'defending' Christianity. But, perhaps, all along...I was skeptical? I don't know. I grew up in the Christian faith, and spent years praying, reading the Bible, and seeking 'solace' in 'God.' It felt genuine to me at the time. What caused me to ultimately abandon the faith, wasn't anything on an emotional level. Rather, it started to unravel when I realized that Genesis wasn't to be taken literally. Many fundamentalist Christians take it literally, I wasn't a 'fundie.' lol Genesis is not truth, discupulus. It's just not. There has been plentiful evidence to point towards the theory of evolution. Genesis runs counter to that. Even if I view it as a mere moral story, I don't understand why we need such a story. Why do we make up stories about gods that we don't see? Why do we believe stories in a book, that have no basis in reality? Why do we need a Savior? Why would a Deity create a ''fallen'' creation?

And if the writers of the Bible, made up Genesis, what else have they made up? You can't cherry pick your way through the Bible, and still call yourself a Christian. Many do, but that's not being true to the faith. I spent years cherry picking. It is far better to be 100% invested or not. As an Agnostic, I no longer have to cherry pick. I don't believe in Christianity, yet I am open to the idea that a Deity, of some type, may exist. I simply no longer find the need to determine it though, one way or the other.

It's not enough to say ''Well, God's mind is not ours. God's ways are not our ways.'' It's not enough for me to just go along with a story, that seems to run counter to equality for all. I think Jesus may have existed a historical figure of some type (who knows?), but not the way the Bible depicts him.

The Bible has been the cornerstone for so much historical violence. You can say, well...those people (like Constantine, for example) misinterpreted Scripture for his own empire, his own gain. But, a lot of people are misinterpreting the Bible, then and now. It really isn't misinterpreted. Is it? Paul was a sexist. Meanwhile, Jesus spoke more to women than men, about his teachings. Then, Paul comes on the scene, and runs counter to that, implying that women are to basially stay quiet and not be in leadership roles in the church. This very thinking is running many households and churches today, in the name of Christianity. Many Christians talk about the Bible, as 'the greatest love story ever told.' For who?

If I were to remain a Christian still, I'd have to make a lot of excuses for a book I follow. For rules I follow. I'd have to believe that God is this sadist, yet loving Being. The OT was a foreshadowing of the NT. It can't be ignored, just because Jesus came on the scene.

I could go on for a long time too, see?

So, I ask you. And maybe this isn't the thread to ask you, but I want to know...how do you reconcile the Bible with science? With the theory of evolution? With REALITY?

You do seem to love your faith. You do seem, genuine about it. I once was too, and so...I can sense that right away. (as opposed to trolls who come and go here, and really just want to bait atheists/agnostics into discussions that go nowhere)

Excellent Deidre32. I can say with confidence that many feel just as you do even now and have misgivings about the Genesis account and how it correlates with the theory of evolution by natural selection.

Do recent discoveries in science contradict the Genesis account? I am happy to tell you that I do not take the Genesis creation account literally either. In fact, a good many Christian apologists see no insurmountable difficulties in reconciling science and the Genesis creation accounts. I am one of them. In fact, I am open to wherever the evidence leads.

When I say I stand by the Bible 100%, I mean it no doubt. That does not mean that I necessarily have to take everything in the Bible literally! There is a difference which I am sure you are aware. Genesis is perhaps best seen as an example of "antiquarian history", a type of literature telling of the first appearance of humans, the stories of ancestors and heroes, and the origins of culture, cities and so forth. So you see, the Genesis accounts do not need to be viewed as some sort of ancient "science textbook" at all. The purpose of the Genesis creation accounts was to establish certain fundamental truths regarding the origins of things.

The Bible contains an assortment of various types of literary genres. So I think Deidre32, something that might help you in this particular area would be to really study the Genesis account utilizing the Hebrew Text and go from there.

Genesis is geared towards telling us some things that are really already self-evident if you think about it, i.e the universe began to exist at some point in the distant past and this was brought about by an intelligent mind. It goes on to tell us that there is order in the universe and that life on earth is not some random accident but rather, that it is here by the intentional act of a causal agent. We see man created in God's image and that man holds a special place in the order of things and this is due to God's providence.

Within that broad rubric, we have liberty to fill in the blanks with whatever we come to find through scientific investigation.

So trust me, your misgivings do not mean that you have to just throw the bible away!

(March 3, 2014 at 7:27 pm)discipulus Wrote:

(March 3, 2014 at 7:01 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: discipulus, I was once like you. I did believe as you do. Even how you interpret things, and explain, it sounds familiar to how I once was, when it came to 'defending' Christianity. But, perhaps, all along...I was skeptical? I don't know. I grew up in the Christian faith, and spent years praying, reading the Bible, and seeking 'solace' in 'God.' It felt genuine to me at the time. What caused me to ultimately abandon the faith, wasn't anything on an emotional level. Rather, it started to unravel when I realized that Genesis wasn't to be taken literally. Many fundamentalist Christians take it literally, I wasn't a 'fundie.' lol Genesis is not truth, discupulus. It's just not. There has been plentiful evidence to point towards the theory of evolution. Genesis runs counter to that. Even if I view it as a mere moral story, I don't understand why we need such a story. Why do we make up stories about gods that we don't see? Why do we believe stories in a book, that have no basis in reality? Why do we need a Savior? Why would a Deity create a ''fallen'' creation?

And if the writers of the Bible, made up Genesis, what else have they made up? You can't cherry pick your way through the Bible, and still call yourself a Christian. Many do, but that's not being true to the faith. I spent years cherry picking. It is far better to be 100% invested or not. As an Agnostic, I no longer have to cherry pick. I don't believe in Christianity, yet I am open to the idea that a Deity, of some type, may exist. I simply no longer find the need to determine it though, one way or the other.

It's not enough to say ''Well, God's mind is not ours. God's ways are not our ways.'' It's not enough for me to just go along with a story, that seems to run counter to equality for all. I think Jesus may have existed a historical figure of some type (who knows?), but not the way the Bible depicts him.

The Bible has been the cornerstone for so much historical violence. You can say, well...those people (like Constantine, for example) misinterpreted Scripture for his own empire, his own gain. But, a lot of people are misinterpreting the Bible, then and now. It really isn't misinterpreted. Is it? Paul was a sexist. Meanwhile, Jesus spoke more to women than men, about his teachings. Then, Paul comes on the scene, and runs counter to that, implying that women are to basially stay quiet and not be in leadership roles in the church. This very thinking is running many households and churches today, in the name of Christianity. Many Christians talk about the Bible, as 'the greatest love story ever told.' For who?

If I were to remain a Christian still, I'd have to make a lot of excuses for a book I follow. For rules I follow. I'd have to believe that God is this sadist, yet loving Being. The OT was a foreshadowing of the NT. It can't be ignored, just because Jesus came on the scene.

I could go on for a long time too, see?

So, I ask you. And maybe this isn't the thread to ask you, but I want to know...how do you reconcile the Bible with science? With the theory of evolution? With REALITY?

You do seem to love your faith. You do seem, genuine about it. I once was too, and so...I can sense that right away. (as opposed to trolls who come and go here, and really just want to bait atheists/agnostics into discussions that go nowhere)

Excellent Deidre32. I can say with confidence that many feel just as you do even now and have misgivings about the Genesis account and how it correlates with the theory of evolution by natural selection.

Do recent discoveries in science contradict the Genesis account? I am happy to tell you that I do not take the Genesis creation account literally either. In fact, a good many Christian apologists see no insurmountable difficulties in reconciling science and the Genesis creation accounts. I am one of them. In fact, I am open to wherever the evidence leads.

When I say I stand by the Bible 100%, I mean it no doubt. That does not mean that I necessarily have to take everything in the Bible literally! There is a difference which I am sure you are aware. Genesis is perhaps best seen as an example of "antiquarian history", a type of literature telling of the first appearance of humans, the stories of ancestors and heroes, and the origins of culture, cities and so forth. So you see, the Genesis accounts do not need to be viewed as some sort of ancient "science textbook" at all. The purpose of the Genesis creation accounts was to establish certain fundamental truths regarding the origins of things.

The Bible contains an assortment of various types of literary genres. So I think Deidre32, something that might help you in this particular area would be to really study the Genesis account utilizing the Hebrew Text and go from there.

Genesis is geared towards telling us some things that are really already self-evident if you think about it, i.e the universe began to exist at some point in the distant past and this was brought about by an intelligent mind. It goes on to tell us that there is order in the universe and that life on earth is not some random accident but rather, that it is here by the intentional act of a causal agent. We see man created in God's image and that man holds a special place in the order of things and this is due to God's providence.

Within that broad rubric, we have liberty to fill in the blanks with whatever we come to find through scientific investigation.

So trust me, your misgivings do not mean that you have to just throw the bible away!

But man wasn't created as special and unique, if you follow the theory of evolution. The specialness of man is religous-speak only. (just sayin) lol

Okay. So. How do you reconcile accepting Genesis as metaphorical in nature, but not the rest of the Bible? How does one make such a distinction? Eventually, the baby will be thrown out with the bathwater, you will see.

(March 3, 2014 at 7:35 pm)Deidre32 Wrote:

(March 3, 2014 at 7:27 pm)discipulus Wrote: Excellent Deidre32. I can say with confidence that many feel just as you do even now and have misgivings about the Genesis account and how it correlates with the theory of evolution by natural selection.

Do recent discoveries in science contradict the Genesis account? I am happy to tell you that I do not take the Genesis creation account literally either. In fact, a good many Christian apologists see no insurmountable difficulties in reconciling science and the Genesis creation accounts. I am one of them. In fact, I am open to wherever the evidence leads.

When I say I stand by the Bible 100%, I mean it no doubt. That does not mean that I necessarily have to take everything in the Bible literally! There is a difference which I am sure you are aware. Genesis is perhaps best seen as an example of "antiquarian history", a type of literature telling of the first appearance of humans, the stories of ancestors and heroes, and the origins of culture, cities and so forth. So you see, the Genesis accounts do not need to be viewed as some sort of ancient "science textbook" at all. The purpose of the Genesis creation accounts was to establish certain fundamental truths regarding the origins of things.

The Bible contains an assortment of various types of literary genres. So I think Deidre32, something that might help you in this particular area would be to really study the Genesis account utilizing the Hebrew Text and go from there.

Genesis is geared towards telling us some things that are really already self-evident if you think about it, i.e the universe began to exist at some point in the distant past and this was brought about by an intelligent mind. It goes on to tell us that there is order in the universe and that life on earth is not some random accident but rather, that it is here by the intentional act of a causal agent. We see man created in God's image and that man holds a special place in the order of things and this is due to God's providence.

Within that broad rubric, we have liberty to fill in the blanks with whatever we come to find through scientific investigation.

So trust me, your misgivings do not mean that you have to just throw the bible away!

But man wasn't created as special and unique, if you follow the theory of evolution. The specialness of man is religous-speak only. (just sayin) lol

Okay. So. How do you reconcile accepting Genesis as metaphorical in nature, but not the rest of the Bible? How does one make such a distinction? Eventually, the baby will be thrown out with the bathwater, you will see.

One word....

Hermeneutics!

I love it.....

I know I know.....most people have this idea of hermeneutics as being the most dreadfully boring discipline ever, but I think, at least in my opinion, it is indispensable for the apologist!

Quote:Indeed, there are things in the bible that can give rise to confusion.

You'd think a 'god' would be a better communicator, wouldn't you?

(March 3, 2014 at 8:03 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Indeed, there are things in the bible that can give rise to confusion.

You'd think a 'god' would be a better communicator, wouldn't you?

Indeed, it would be easy to shake my fist up at God whenever I run across a "bible difficulty" as they are frequently called, and say: "God! You are a lousy communicator.

In fact, I have done that on several occasions. LOL, of course not with regards to bible difficulties, but with other difficulties I have had in my life. In fact, I think it is very telling that we as humans often times do blame God when things happen in our life that leave us feeling hurt and abused and abandoned or misunderstood. I see this happen across the spectrum, not just with believers but unbelievers as well. It seems that there is something within each of us that makes us feel like God owes us a carefree, comfortable, cozy, all warm and fuzzy pleasure laden existence here on earth and whenever cold hard reality comes crashing home, we feel like we have been neglected by God.....

Do you agree with anything I have said?