Just discovering that there are germs that cause disease, and making medicines to counteract this. The bible doesn't talk about germs. It talks about demons. So you have exorcisms and attempts at praying away sickness.

Religion is very harmful to society, and christians are sometimes told that this life isn't important. Be in the world, but not of it. They focus on the afterlife that they can't prove is real, instead of this life that they experience every day.

Yes there are good christians that help people, but that's either by ignoring parts of the bible that don't suit a modern world, or by taking passages like love thy neighbor and treat people equally that should be basic common sense that every culture can learn without a bible in their hands.

You have priests molesting children because their book tells them sex and masturbation is bad, and priests can't get married. If priests were allowed to marry, and masturbate, I guarantee you that we wouldn't have nearly as many stories about them molesting boys, and when it happens they would be excommunicated.

Honestly I find it hard to think of some part of christianity that's actually good for children or anyone else, aside from the most basic commandments for empathy or this afterlife that can't be proven to exist.

(March 2, 2014 at 3:08 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(March 1, 2014 at 11:48 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Deism gave us the Declaration of Independance and the Declaration of the Rights of Man.

Infinitely superior to the jesus freak motherfuckers and their divine right of kings.

In all fairness, I'm pretty sure that Jesus wasn't the one who established the divine right of kings. I'm pretty sure kings did that.

I don't hold xtianity against any "jesus." There is no evidence that any such person ever existed. Xtianity, however, was cobbled together over the course of centuries as the perfect doctrine for rulers to dominate the masses.

(March 2, 2014 at 3:08 am)bennyboy Wrote: In all fairness, I'm pretty sure that Jesus wasn't the one who established the divine right of kings. I'm pretty sure kings did that.

Actually, it was his vicar, Paul.

Romans 13:1-2

(March 2, 2014 at 9:52 am)discipulus Wrote: Where did this laying waste take place?

Here: Why these "scholarly assumptions" aren't valid, why the timeline is a mess, why we can't be sure what Jesus really taught or confirm any of his supposed bio in the Gospel accounts.

You ignored the entire post.

Here: More problems with your timeline.

Here: Problems with John the Baptist's role in the story.

You ignored both posts.

Here: More reasons I have doubts about Jesus' baptism story in the Gospels.

You ignored that post and restated your question.

You then played the slippery eel and changed the debate subject numerous times. You've shown yourself to be extremely sleazy, even by apologist standards. I'm done with you.

Go regale some Christian forum about your glorious victory after shitting all over the chess board and flying away.

(March 2, 2014 at 11:35 am)Chad32 Wrote: Just discovering that there are germs that cause disease, and making medicines to counteract this. The bible doesn't talk about germs. It talks about demons. So you have exorcisms and attempts at praying away sickness.

Religion is very harmful to society, and christians are sometimes told that this life isn't important. Be in the world, but not of it. They focus on the afterlife that they can't prove is real, instead of this life that they experience every day.

Yes there are good christians that help people, but that's either by ignoring parts of the bible that don't suit a modern world, or by taking passages like love thy neighbor and treat people equally that should be basic common sense that every culture can learn without a bible in their hands.

You have priests molesting children because their book tells them sex and masturbation is bad, and priests can't get married. If priests were allowed to marry, and masturbate, I guarantee you that we wouldn't have nearly as many stories about them molesting boys, and when it happens they would be excommunicated.

Honestly I find it hard to think of some part of christianity that's actually good for children or anyone else, aside from the most basic commandments for empathy or this afterlife that can't be proven to exist.

Just to follow up on the child molesting my problem isn't merely that Christianity has rules that might lead to it. The unforgivable crime of the catholic church was to cover it up. They knew about pedophile priests but instead of exposing them, casting them out or at the very least moving them into positions where they didn't have access to children they moved them from one parish to another ensuring a steady supply of unsuspecting victims.

That these victims should be taken from their own"flock" is simply beyond comprehension. This is what Christians do for the children, but it doesn't stop there.

The words of Jesus have been used for 2000 years to indoctrinate minds too young for critical thinking into a religion of double speak and total subjugation to an absolute dictator. Children have been terrified with stories of hell into pledging allegiance to their invisible father who loves them so much he will send them to hell should they fail to love Jesus. We have one of those poor unfortunates haunting the forums right now. This is what Christianity does for children, but it doesn't stop there.

Even today Christians are torturing children to death for being witches, that's today, in 2014. This is what Christianity does for children.

Sick children. Those suffering from mental illness or perhaps even epilepsy, what treatments does Christianity offer even today? Exorcism! In 2014! This is what Christianity does for children.

Then there is that wonderful doctrine of the catholic church that unbaptized babies that die go to purgatory till the end of time. What a wonderful way to torture berieved parents. Even the catholic church couldn't stomach that particular revulsion forever and had to rescind it. This is what Christianity does for children.

How many of these do we need exactly? I am reduced to typing this on a tablet and my finger is killing me.

When I get back to my PC I'll add some more.

(March 2, 2014 at 11:11 am)discipulus Wrote: This is the kind of evidence I am talking about. I am talking about men and women who refuse to talk about the problems of humanity and actually did something about them and lived in accordance with what Christ taught i.e. that we should love one another and take care of the orphan and the widow and the helpless.

You really think that if you continually remind people about the little bit of good that some christians do, that we'll forget about the beast behind the curtain? Christianity is not and has NEVER been a cure-all by any stretch of the imagination. Even the credit your religion gets for helping children is nullified by the fact that there is always an agenda behind it. It's extremely difficult to imprint adults. The malleable mind of a child can be taught to believe anything and therefore, makes them a target for the cult of jesus.

You insult the intelligence of everyone here by glossing over the atrocities of christians by using that tired cop-out, "they weren't TRUE christians." Well, if history has taught us anything it's that Christianity always speaks for itself and that cherry picking the tiny bit of sweet corn out of a turd does not make it any more edible.

Quote:“Give me the children until they are 7 and anyone may have them afterwards.”

Francis Xavier, Founder of the Jesuits

Now, of course, by the time they are 7 they are all fucked out by pervert priests.

(March 2, 2014 at 7:49 am)discipulus Wrote: But instead of some cartoonish video, I reply with simply hard facts and statistics for you all to engage with that show that the majority of the the members of the Constitutional Convention were Christians. Not Deists.

You're going to ad-hom a video? Name-calling a video that you don't agree with is pathetic and just because christians outnumbered Deists doesn't change the fact that the Constitution IS deistic. The video didn't lie about the language used in the Constitution. It is not Christian. This is a fact you didn't even bother to address.

Quote:The phrase "Founding Fathers" is a proper noun. It refers to a specific group of men, the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention. There were other important players not in attendance, like Jefferson, whose thinking deeply influenced the shaping of our nation. These 55 Founding Fathers, though, made up the core.

The denominational affiliations of these men were a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown, and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin--this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith. [John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), p. 43.]

This is a revealing tally. It shows that the members of the Constitutional Convention, the most influential group of men shaping the political foundations of our nation, were almost all Christians, 51 of 55--a full 93%. Indeed, 70% were Calvinists (the Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and the Dutch Reformed).

Again - so what? Not much of a shocker: Christians outnumber deists. Thanks Captain Obvious.
Oh and this business of counting 55 of the Founding Fathers is only a cherry-picked technicality. It's a well-known fact that there are SEVEN primary figures identified as the Founding Fathers. The only reason you include the other 48 men is to minimize the percent of deists directly involved with the creation of the constitution. Basically, you're using a useless historical statistic to make some point you don't actually have.
Then we can also add another little problem for your argument: You yourself have admitted that so-called Christians aren't really True Christians. Therefore, since the Constitution was CLEARLY written free of any Christian dogma, I'd say it's pretty easy to make the argument that there were damn few Christian founding fathers. What? You're free to claim the No True Scotsman argument whenever the hell you please, but I can't? Here's yet another consideration: Everyone knows that it's nearly impossible to get a Catholic and a Fundamentalist to agree on anything, let alone when the entire room is filled with multiple denominations that likely wouldn't even come CLOSE to seeing eye to eye - which brings me to my next point ....

Quote:And what of our friend ole Ben Franklin.....:

Though not an orthodox Christian, it was 81-year-old Franklin's emotional call to humble prayer on June 28, 1787, that was the turning point for a hopelessly stalled Convention. James Madison recorded the event in his collection of notes and debates from the Federal Convention. Franklin's appeal contained no less than four direct references to Scripture.

Well of course he prayed. It's called placating. Benjaming Franklin was surrounded by a group of self-righteous, self-interested Christians. A group that has notoriously never gotten along with each other and would rather spend the rest of time arguing about pointless shit than just solve the problem and get the job done. Franklin manipulated a bunch of sheep by praying to THEIR god. Why? It seems very likely that he was trying to get something done and this group of christards just needed to be put back on track. You should be thanking Ben Franklin for being there to redirect the stupids back to the job at hand.

Quote:However...

The Fathers sought to set up a just society, not a Christian theocracy.
They specifically prohibited the establishment of Christianity--or any other faith--as the religion of our nation. http://www.str.org/articles/the-faith-of...xMU1flSiSo

With regards to the separation of Chruch and State, I heartily agree that that is the way it should be!!!

And lets not forget the sentiment that YOU just shared above: Christianity should NOT be the religion of this nation - as it never was.

(March 2, 2014 at 7:49 am)discipulus Wrote:

(March 1, 2014 at 11:30 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: For the Dis man, he wants me to offer what deists have done for the world, as opposed to Christianity's wonderful contributions.

Well, for starters...

Another red herring. For I specifically asked DeistPaladin to furnish us with what Deists have done for the Children of the world's nations.

You know that something that is positive for a population in a given area is also positive for the children in that population, right?

Improve conditions for life anywhere on the planet and you're helping children... Sometimes, that creates a whole problem in itself, like overpopulation, but I've heard some christians ignore overpopulation as if the planet was theirs to rule and use and some magical being will just keep it right for them...

(March 2, 2014 at 11:35 am)Chad32 Wrote: Just discovering that there are germs that cause disease, and making medicines to counteract this. The bible doesn't talk about germs. It talks about demons. So you have exorcisms and attempts at praying away sickness.

Religion is very harmful to society, and christians are sometimes told that this life isn't important. Be in the world, but not of it. They focus on the afterlife that they can't prove is real, instead of this life that they experience every day.

Yes there are good christians that help people, but that's either by ignoring parts of the bible that don't suit a modern world, or by taking passages like love thy neighbor and treat people equally that should be basic common sense that every culture can learn without a bible in their hands.

You have priests molesting children because their book tells them sex and masturbation is bad, and priests can't get married. If priests were allowed to marry, and masturbate, I guarantee you that we wouldn't have nearly as many stories about them molesting boys, and when it happens they would be excommunicated.

Honestly I find it hard to think of some part of christianity that's actually good for children or anyone else, aside from the most basic commandments for empathy or this afterlife that can't be proven to exist.

The Bible does not say sex is bad so that is demonstrably incorrect.

Nor does the bible specifically speak to the issue of masterbation. The bible condemns lustful acts and warns that allowing lust to consume you can only ultimately end up hurting you. This is not controversial unless you feel that acting upon lust is somehow beneficial. A position I have yet to see rationally defended.

Your arguments are very weak and betray an ignorance either willfull or unwillful of what the bible says.