(March 17, 2014 at 9:38 am)Drich Wrote:

(March 15, 2014 at 4:42 pm)themonkeyman Wrote: 4) What makes Jesus not a Sinner if he took our sins?

When the Jews sacrificed the sin offerings in OT days, The Sin offering/Sheep did not take the sin of the sinner upon them.

The wage of sin was death. Or rather the punishment of sin is death. Christ died for the sins of the world, thus paying man's debt. However Christ being God resurected himself, and overcame death.

NASB Wrote:7 He shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the doorway of the tent of meeting. 8 Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the Lord fell, and make it a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat. ...

... 20 “When he finishes atoning for the holy place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. 21 Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands in readiness. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

Leviticus 16:7-22

(March 15, 2014 at 4:47 pm)themonkeyman Wrote: Actually I would say I have a passive belief in a 'God' or something that exists in everything. I have read Gnostic Biblical works and it makes more sense that God is everything we know and that we ourselves are part of 'God' and are 'God.

I find this is quite profound teaching, Part of me also believes that Jesus was more than likely an Alien here just to sway cilvilzation down a certain path. E.g. Christianity == War + Rich Priests / Islam == Suicide Bombers.

Well, no. That doesn't actually make any sense at all.

So being beaten to bloody pulp in from a mocking crowd, having your brow impaled by thorns, hanging suspended in the air as your flesh shreds till you suffocate...

Jesus could have lived a life of ease making chairs in a one horse town. Instead he loved you enough to put himself through all that agony.

And you have the gaul to say He didn't make a sacrifice because He resurrected.

(March 17, 2014 at 6:59 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: So being beaten to bloody pulp in from a mocking crowd, having your brow impaled by thorns, hanging suspended in the air as your flesh shreds till you suffocate...

Jesus could have lived a life of ease making chairs in a one horse town. Instead he loved you enough to put himself through all that agony.

And you have the gall to say He didn't make a sacrifice because He resurrected.

If it happened, it didn't mean squat. It's still sending yourself down to sacrifice yourself to yourself to save people from something you made because of a curse you put on them for petty reasons.

No innocent should ever pay for the crimes of the guilty. No one should be found guilty without fair trial. No guilty person should ever be punished beyond their crime. This is what justice is. It is not condemning someone for something someone else did, without trial, and punished with an eternity of suffering. Which is what mainstream christians believe.

What he did was immoral, and served no purpose other than to entertain him. He lost nothing substantial that I can tell

(March 17, 2014 at 6:59 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: So being beaten to bloody pulp in from a mocking crowd, having your brow impaled by thorns, hanging suspended in the air as your flesh shreds till you suffocate...

Jesus could have lived a life of ease making chairs in a one horse town. Instead he loved you enough to put himself through all that agony.

And you have the gaul to say He didn't make a sacrifice because He resurrected.

*gall

And one would actually have to believe that unlikely story to accept that argument.

(March 17, 2014 at 6:59 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: So being beaten to bloody pulp in from a mocking crowd, having your brow impaled by thorns, hanging suspended in the air as your flesh shreds till you suffocate...

Jesus could have lived a life of ease making chairs in a one horse town. Instead he loved you enough to put himself through all that agony.

And you have the gaul to say He didn't make a sacrifice because He resurrected.

Please explain how "loving" me has anything to do with the agony that some assholes put him through. People were crucified all the time. I mean, in all seriousness, do you actually listen to yourself when you say this crap? You're connecting dots that don't even form a coherent idea.

(March 17, 2014 at 2:55 pm)rasetsu Wrote:

(March 17, 2014 at 9:38 am)Drich Wrote: When the Jews sacrificed the sin offerings in OT days, The Sin offering/Sheep did not take the sin of the sinner upon them.

The wage of sin was death. Or rather the punishment of sin is death. Christ died for the sins of the world, thus paying man's debt. However Christ being God resurected himself, and overcame death.

NASB Wrote:7 He shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the doorway of the tent of meeting. 8 Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the Lord fell, and make it a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat. ...

... 20 “When he finishes atoning for the holy place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. 21 Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands in readiness. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

Leviticus 16:7-22

Was Christ released in the wilderness? No, He was nailed to a cross and left to die. What you have is a transferance of sin to the 'scape goat.' while the blood offering was made to cover the transgressors of said sins.

(Keep reading to verse 28)
23 “Then Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of meeting, shall take off the linen garments which he put on when he went into the Holy Place, and shall leave them there. 24 And he shall wash his body with water in a holy place, put on his garments, come out and offer his burnt offering and the burnt offering of the people, and make atonement for himself and for the people. 25 The fat of the sin offering he shall burn on the altar. 26 And he who released the goat as the scapegoat shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp. 27 The bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the Holy Place, shall be carried outside the camp. And they shall burn in the fire their skins, their flesh, and their offal. 28 Then he who burns them shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp.

Christ's actions repersents the final word in the blood sacrifice needed to atone for sin. Christ was not the 'scapegoat' He was the blood sacrifice.

As outlined in the following link, blood sacrifices 'cover' the sin of the sinner they do not transfer.
http://www.preciousholidays.net/bloodsacrifice.html

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(March 17, 2014 at 7:09 pm)Chad32 Wrote:

(March 17, 2014 at 6:59 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: So being beaten to bloody pulp in from a mocking crowd, having your brow impaled by thorns, hanging suspended in the air as your flesh shreds till you suffocate...

Jesus could have lived a life of ease making chairs in a one horse town. Instead he loved you enough to put himself through all that agony.

And you have the gall to say He didn't make a sacrifice because He resurrected.

If it happened, it didn't mean squat. It's still sending yourself down to sacrifice yourself to yourself to save people from something you made because of a curse you put on them for petty reasons.

No innocent should ever pay for the crimes of the guilty. No one should be found guilty without fair trial. No guilty person should ever be punished beyond their crime. This is what justice is. It is not condemning someone for something someone else did, without trial, and punished with an eternity of suffering. Which is what mainstream christians believe.

What he did was immoral, and served no purpose other than to entertain him. He lost nothing substantial that I can tell

What happened on the cross was a physical repersentation of what God endured to allow for attonement. whether you can personally understand all of the symbology or not few can dispute the price and pain that was paid to bring about the forgiveness of sin.

You know, I get the feeling that Yahweh has some deep mental problems. It isn't enough for him to create angels and such to worship him all the time. It isn't enough that a portion of the human race worships him, despite having no concrete evidence. He feels the need to hurt himself, if such a thing is even possible, just to allow himself to be around those who give their lives to him, and send the rest away. Either to be tortured, or just to be in a place completely isolated from him.

He needs some psychiatric evaluation, because the more I think about it the more I feel he is insane. There seems to be a good case of him being insane, evil, or both. This guy fits no definition I can think of when I try to think of someone I would respect or worship. Maybe fear, but I've been told that living in abject horror of what he might do next isn't the kind of "fear" the bible means when they say to fear him. I had nightmares about my father, but at least there was some limiting factor on what he was allowed to do to me. He is, of course, the best example I can think of when it comes to someone who had power over me and punished me for disobedience, and needed other people to assure me that he loved me because it wasn't evident in my interactions with him.

Of course you could say god isn't like my dad. Well if I can't find some common ground somewhere, and can't relate to anything Yahweh does, then I don't know how I'm supposed to interact with the thing.

(March 18, 2014 at 8:51 am)Drich Wrote: Was Christ released in the wilderness? No, He was nailed to a cross and left to die. What you have is a transferance of sin to the 'scape goat.' while the blood offering was made to cover the transgressors of said sins.

Christ wasn't let loose in the wilderness, but neither was he a blood sacrifice or a burnt offering. Thus your saying he was one rather than the other is just bare assertion. The Jewish leaders turned Jesus loose to die at the hands of the secular authorities. He wasn't "sacrificed" by any Jew, and he was cut loose into the wilderness of Roman justice to die there. He satisfies the tradition of the scapegoat better than the blood sacrifice, which must be carried out by Jews to be of any value. Either he was a scapegoat for the atonement of Israel, which he clearly was, or his death had no meaning because it wasn't a proper sacrifice. You yourself quote where Aaron had to be involved in the sacrifice.

(March 18, 2014 at 3:55 pm)rasetsu Wrote:

(March 18, 2014 at 8:51 am)Drich Wrote: Was Christ released in the wilderness? No, He was nailed to a cross and left to die. What you have is a transferance of sin to the 'scape goat.' while the blood offering was made to cover the transgressors of said sins.

Christ wasn't let loose in the wilderness, but neither was he a blood sacrifice or a burnt offering. Thus your saying he was one rather than the other is just bare assertion. The Jewish leaders turned Jesus loose to die at the hands of the secular authorities. He wasn't "sacrificed" by any Jew, and he was cut loose into the wilderness of Roman justice to die there. He satisfies the tradition of the scapegoat better than the blood sacrifice, which must be carried out by Jews to be of any value. Either he was a scapegoat for the atonement of Israel, which he clearly was, or his death had no meaning because it wasn't a proper sacrifice. You yourself quote where Aaron had to be involved in the sacrifice.

There is a theme in the NT that demonstrates that Jesus was indeed to be considered the final blood sacrifice.:


Hebrews 9:11-18 confirms the symbolism of blood as life and applies Leviticus 17:11 to the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. Verse 12 states clearly that the Old Testament blood sacrifices were temporary and only atoned for sin partially and for a short time, hence the need to repeat the sacrifices yearly. But when Christ entered the Most Holy Place, He did so to offer His own blood once for all time, making future sacrifices unnecessary. This is what Jesus meant by His dying words on the cross: “It is finished” (John 19:30). Never again would the blood of bulls and goats cleanse men from their sin. Only by accepting Jesus’ blood, shed on the cross for the remission of sins, can we stand before God covered in the righteousness of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/blood-sacrif...z2wPUMWad8