(March 30, 2014 at 1:36 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Well for one thing you are just as frustrated about false religions as people claiming to follow the one true religion. You are just as frustrated by the evils of this world with no way of solving it. You can work for good of this world by following a religion or by being secular, but at the end, you can't bring about all goodness in this world. Wars continue due to nationalism and other reasons. Your moral views are just one the many views out there just as in the case if you followed a religion. But the main point was religions and differences don't cease to exist if we don't as individuals believe in religion. People will still be intolerant towards us etc....

That is astutely accurate, but it does not answer the premise that being secular is just as bad as being religious. There are problems in this world that have nothing to do with religion, but those problems are coinciding with problems that are caused by religion. Imagine how violence could be decreased if religion was not a factor whatsoever.

As far as non-religious violence is concerned, I honestly believe patriarchy plays a major role in it. Would the world be less violent if less men were in places of power? Would the world be less violent if more women were in places of power? I believe the answer to that is yes. Women, it has been statistically shown, are less prone to violence than men.

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(March 30, 2014 at 1:36 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think we both agree religion is a problem and the way humanity uses it is a problem. That is why I believe we need some help from God.

God is the problem, too, because a belief in god always leads to a construction of religion. It is inevitable, because humans are social animals. They cannot fathom a religious belief without building some silly social construct around it whereby they share their concepts with others.

I agree God is part of the problem. He is an easy tool to be used to do evil and divide and hate. This is why I think there is good way to worship God and evil way to worship God. One has God as the goal and the other uses God as a means. The latter is where are all the problems come from.

Either way, if (I'll dare say, because) there is no God, it can mean whatever people want, be it goal or means, and that is a problem.

(March 30, 2014 at 1:55 pm)Alex K Wrote: Either way, if (I'll dare say, because) there is no God, it can mean whatever people want, be it goal or means, and that is a problem.

Well if evil is coming out of people making God as a goal, then again, why not have God intervene and guide people out of their errors?

كَانَ النَّاسُ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً فَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ النَّبِيِّينَ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنْذِرِينَ وَأَنْزَلَ مَعَهُمُ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ لِيَحْكُمَ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ فِيمَا اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ ۚ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ فِيهِ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ أُوتُوهُ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ فَهَدَى اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لِمَا اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ مِنَ الْحَقِّ بِإِذْنِهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ يَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ {213}
[ 2:213] (All) people are as a single nation; so Allah raised prophets as bearers of good news and as warners, and He revealed with them the Book with truth, that it might judge between people in that in which they differed; and none but the very people who were given it differed about it after clear proofs had come to them, revolting among themselves; so Allah has guided by His will those who believe to the truth about which they differed and Allah guides whom He pleases to the right path.

There is no God, so he can't intervene. It's as simple as that.

(March 30, 2014 at 1:59 pm)Alex K Wrote: There is no God, so he can't intervene. It's as simple as that.

Heh. This is why I said I am not arguing Islam vs Atheism. I am arguing Islam vs Deism.

(March 30, 2014 at 1:43 pm)Kitanetos Wrote:

(March 30, 2014 at 1:36 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Well for one thing you are just as frustrated about false religions as people claiming to follow the one true religion. You are just as frustrated by the evils of this world with no way of solving it. You can work for good of this world by following a religion or by being secular, but at the end, you can't bring about all goodness in this world. Wars continue due to nationalism and other reasons. Your moral views are just one the many views out there just as in the case if you followed a religion. But the main point was religions and differences don't cease to exist if we don't as individuals believe in religion. People will still be intolerant towards us etc....

That is astutely accurate, but it does not answer the premise that being secular is just as bad as being religious. There are problems in this world that have nothing to do with religion, but those problems are coinciding with problems that are caused by religion. Imagine how violence could be decreased if religion was not a factor whatsoever.

As far as non-religious violence is concerned, I honestly believe patriarchy plays a major role in it. Would the world be less violent if less men were in places of power? Would the world be less violent if more women were in places of power? I believe the answer to that is yes. Women, it has been statistically shown, are less prone to violence than men.

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(March 30, 2014 at 1:36 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think we both agree religion is a problem and the way humanity uses it is a problem. That is why I believe we need some help from God.

God is the problem, too, because a belief in god always leads to a construction of religion. It is inevitable, because humans are social animals. They cannot fathom a religious belief without building some silly social construct around it whereby they share their concepts with others.

well said. and to add, if a god exists, why must i select from the vast number of preposterous religions, as to how to 'find' him?

(March 30, 2014 at 2:10 pm)Deidre32 Wrote:

(March 30, 2014 at 1:43 pm)Kitanetos Wrote: That is astutely accurate, but it does not answer the premise that being secular is just as bad as being religious. There are problems in this world that have nothing to do with religion, but those problems are coinciding with problems that are caused by religion. Imagine how violence could be decreased if religion was not a factor whatsoever.

As far as non-religious violence is concerned, I honestly believe patriarchy plays a major role in it. Would the world be less violent if less men were in places of power? Would the world be less violent if more women were in places of power? I believe the answer to that is yes. Women, it has been statistically shown, are less prone to violence than men.

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God is the problem, too, because a belief in god always leads to a construction of religion. It is inevitable, because humans are social animals. They cannot fathom a religious belief without building some silly social construct around it whereby they share their concepts with others.

well said. and to add, if a god exists, why must i select from the vast number of preposterous religions, as to how to 'find' him?

You don't pick through religions to find him. You find him first then look at religions or not (your choice).

(March 30, 2014 at 2:19 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 30, 2014 at 2:10 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: well said. and to add, if a god exists, why must i select from the vast number of preposterous religions, as to how to 'find' him?

You don't pick through religions to find him. You find him first then look at religions or not (your choice).

What? Really?? So if a person is never exposed to religion they will just find god? I think not. I was taught a specific religion from birth and I eventually found an absence of god which is how I became an atheist. Where do you find god? Have you found him/her? How do you know it's god?

(March 30, 2014 at 2:19 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 30, 2014 at 2:10 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: well said. and to add, if a god exists, why must i select from the vast number of preposterous religions, as to how to 'find' him?

You don't pick through religions to find him. You find him first then look at religions or not (your choice).

How did you find him? I grew up in Christianity, and was indoctrinated to believe that the God of the Bible was 'thee one and only god.' How does one know what to honestly believe?

I'm sincerely asking you this.

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(March 30, 2014 at 2:25 pm)Losty Wrote:

(March 30, 2014 at 2:19 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: You don't pick through religions to find him. You find him first then look at religions or not (your choice).

What? Really?? So if a person is never exposed to religion they will just find god? I think not. I was taught a specific religion from birth and I eventually found an absence of god which is how I became an atheist. Where do you find god? Have you found him/her? How do you know it's god?

This is so eery, we were typing pretty much the same line of thought at the same time.