I'm an atheist, but I wasn't always. I was once a devout Christian. And, as such, I believed in some magical and blissful eternal life. I believed that I would spend an infinite afterlife worshipping god constantly and somehow that end would give me fulfillment, purpose, and everlasting and constant happiness.

Then one day I woke up. Okay, okay, so I didn't exactly just wake up. There were a number of events and developments that preceded my exodus, so to speak. But I think it is accurate to say that I finally woke up. I finally realized that so things in my religion simply didn't make sense.

Instead of going into all of those things right now, however, I just want to focus on eternal life, and not just the Christian version of it. No, my thoughts here apply to any version of eternal life that involves our current consciousness remaining in tact perpetually.

Now, I understand that, on the surface, such a thing as eternal life sounds amazing, and even seems like it should be a normal and vital goal for anyone that values individual survival. And, as far as the survival part goes, I cannot argue against that, but have you ever stopped to think that maybe individual survival is better off with it's evident limits?

Think about that for just a second. Think about the happiest moment of your life, and imagine dwelling within that moment FOREVER. Can you really imagine being happy there forever?

Speaking personally, I have some absolutely wonderful and exciting memories: getting married to my wife. Things her and I have shared together. Our success in marriage and life. Watching our kids grow up and succeed. The list goes on and on.

But you know what, those things, if they could somehow be lived over and over again, could not sustain happiness for an eternity. In fact, I'm not sure they could sustain happiness for even more than a few lifetimes, if that. And part of the reason for that is simple, we value many things in large part because we know deep down this is our only chance to experience them. For that reason, those experiences are treasured.

And maybe that's the beauty and irony of mortality, the fact that it gives us the ability to truly experience things, both good and bad. It makes us live life and experience life.

I just don't think immortality could offer that, no matter how it's proposed by the seemingly infinite number of religions that have attempted to speculate (more like decree) it's dimensions and merits.

Honestly, people, what would we do with eternal life? Constant sex? Drugs? Love forever? Sing? Do you really believe these things could hold value for more than a few hundred years?

Oh, I know, the mysterious higher power will transform our consciousness to an eternally blissful state which is completely mechanical and no longer held back by autonomy, right?

I happen to think that notion is not only unappealing, but fairly ridiculous. But, for argument sake, let's say it's possible. Wouldn't such a transformation be the same as dying? I mean, if you are no longer you, and your ability to decide has been taken from you, aren't you really dead?

In conclusion, let me say this: I think it's a wonderful thing for a person to aim to live well, contribute positively to humanity, experience life to the fullest, and then rest easy with the knowledge that the next generation will have the opportunity to do it all over again, and perhaps even better.

I'm not so sure. Claims that 'we could never be eternally happy if we were immortal' are probably valid in the context of Abrahamic descriptions of heaven where the breadth of possible experience is so limited but that's not necessarily the case when considering the vastness and complexity of the physical universe. Even if we just consider the size of the human population and the potential for relationship dynamics, can you imagine how much variety and experience is possible? There's billions of lifetimes, right there. Now start plugging in all the possible things to do and all the things there could be to do, all the possible change...

It just seems to be a failure of imagination and patience, to me.

(April 16, 2014 at 4:18 am)smax Wrote: I'm an atheist, but I wasn't always. I was once a devout Christian. And, as such, I believed in some magical and blissful eternal life. I believed that I would spend an infinite afterlife worshipping god constantly and somehow that end would give me fulfillment, purpose, and everlasting and constant happiness.

Then one day I woke up. Okay, okay, so I didn't exactly just wake up. There were a number of events and developments that preceded my exodus, so to speak. But I think it is accurate to say that I finally woke up. I finally realized that so things in my religion simply didn't make sense.

Instead of going into all of those things right now, however, I just want to focus on eternal life, and not just the Christian version of it. No, my thoughts here apply to any version of eternal life that involves our current consciousness remaining in tact perpetually.

Now, I understand that, on the surface, such a thing as eternal life sounds amazing, and even seems like it should be a normal and vital goal for anyone that values individual survival. And, as far as the survival part goes, I cannot argue against that, but have you ever stopped to think that maybe individual survival is better off with it's evident limits?

Think about that for just a second. Think about the happiest moment of your life, and imagine dwelling within that moment FOREVER. Can you really imagine being happy there forever?

Speaking personally, I have some absolutely wonderful and exciting memories: getting married to my wife. Things her and I have shared together. Our success in marriage and life. Watching our kids grow up and succeed. The list goes on and on.

But you know what, those things, if they could somehow be lived over and over again, could not sustain happiness for an eternity. In fact, I'm not sure they could sustain happiness for even more than a few lifetimes, if that. And part of the reason for that is simple, we value many things in large part because we know deep down this is our only chance to experience them. For that reason, those experiences are treasured.

And maybe that's the beauty and irony of mortality, the fact that it gives us the ability to truly experience things, both good and bad. It makes us live life and experience life.

I just don't think immortality could offer that, no matter how it's proposed by the seemingly infinite number of religions that have attempted to speculate (more like decree) it's dimensions and merits.

Honestly, people, what would we do with eternal life? Constant sex? Drugs? Love forever? Sing? Do you really believe these things could hold value for more than a few hundred years?

Oh, I know, the mysterious higher power will transform our consciousness to an eternally blissful state which is completely mechanical and no longer held back by autonomy, right?

I happen to think that notion is not only unappealing, but fairly ridiculous. But, for argument sake, let's say it's possible. Wouldn't such a transformation be the same as dying? I mean, if you are no longer you, and your ability to decide has been taken from you, aren't you really dead?

In conclusion, let me say this: I think it's a wonderful thing for a person to aim to live well, contribute positively to humanity, experience life to the fullest, and then rest easy with the knowledge that the next generation will have the opportunity to do it all over again, and perhaps even better.

I agree. I our present state (carbon/water based) living forever is hell.

Maybe brain wipes every so often would do it ... er wait, that is death and birth.

You both are very eloquent. I think I've probably rambled on about this in some other thread, but let's see if I can contribute here.

I like life. I find it endlessly fascinating, even in the throes of personal frustrations, whatever they may be (weight, lately, and certain social issues). However, having eternal life would cause me some alarm. Firstly, my country (the U.S.) is not set up to provide for a person to live multiple lifespans. What would the retirement age be? How would our bodies age? Would that slow down? Or would we be completely broken down beyond what we see in octogenarians by the time we turn, say, 200? These issues concern me. Humanity would need a very different lifestyle paradigm to even begin to attempt to live a live of worth that extends infinitely.

Secondly, the family paradigm would change in a weird way. Divorce would be a given. Disownment out of mere boredom with family members would start to be a real issue. Probably other issues I haven't thought of because it's 6:37am.l So maybe I'll stop here.

(April 16, 2014 at 4:18 am)smax Wrote: Oh, I know, the mysterious higher power will transform our consciousness to an eternally blissful state which is completely mechanical and no longer held back by autonomy, right?

I happen to think that notion is not only unappealing, but fairly ridiculous. But, for argument sake, let's say it's possible. Wouldn't such a transformation be the same as dying? I mean, if you are no longer you, and your ability to decide has been taken from you, aren't you really dead?

That's one of the reasons I can't buy the whole "this is a test" answer to the problem of evil/suffering. It basically takes the form of "you will be tested, and if you pass, someone who's not you will get an eternal reward!".

(April 16, 2014 at 9:15 am)Ben Davis Wrote: I'm not so sure. Claims that 'we could never be eternally happy if we were immortal' are probably valid in the context of Abrahamic descriptions of heaven where the breadth of possible experience is so limited but that's not necessarily the case when considering the vastness and complexity of the physical universe. Even if we just consider the size of the human population and the potential for relationship dynamics, can you imagine how much variety and experience is possible? There's billions of lifetimes, right there. Now start plugging in all the possible things to do and all the things there could be to do, all the possible change...

It just seems to be a failure of imagination and patience, to me.

You could certainly work a number of variables for a very long time, no doubt about that. But, even if those variables were seemingly endless, it doesn't change the fact that life itself would probably become a bit pointless, boring, and burdensome.

In fact, I suspect the mere fact that one would be immortal would, in itself, speed up the journey toward boredom and pointlessness.

And, mind you, this is all assuming that the scenario one is living within is rather ideal, which in itself is impractical. More likely some (or many) difficult circumstances would develop, weighing life's burden even more heavily.

Again, however, even in an ideal scenario, I don't believe eternal life would prove to be anything less than hell. There's a reason why us human beings love rest and relaxation and canceling plans and taking time off of work, etc., etc. We dream of eternal life, but only out of ignorance of who and what we really are. We, as individuals, are here for but a relatively short time, and then we pass on. Somewhere, deep deep down, that is a comforting end, one we hope is distant, but no less one that we eventually look forward to.

That's how I see it.

(April 16, 2014 at 4:18 am)smax Wrote: Honestly, people, what would we do with eternal life? Constant sex? Drugs? Love forever? Sing? Do you really believe these things could hold value for more than a few hundred years?

I don't know how it would go because I only have 45 years of my own to go on, and those don't seem anywhere near enough. In another 45 years I may feel the same, or have a different perspective. To be honest, I don't know that I can fathom 1,000 years, much less eternity. Could I ever get tired of living? I think it's impossible to know after just 45 years. Maybe even after 450. Or 45,000. I simply lack the wherewithal to judge.

I do think that the key to enjoying it would be to continue to have new challenges. New things to learn, new things to discover, new things to do. Perhaps having an informal dinner with friends would never get old as long as there were other pursuits to keep life fresh. Or sex, or drugs, or roller coasters. Maybe with the right balance of excitement and downtime I could keep on enjoying life for millions of years.

I know this-- I would grow bored of patting god on the back very, very quickly.

(April 16, 2014 at 1:48 pm)Tonus Wrote: Maybe with the right balance of excitement and downtime I could keep on enjoying life for millions of years.

Perhaps, but something tells me that the challenge of doing that would be far greater if you knew that you were bound to life eternal, no matter how good.

Quote:I know this-- I would grow bored of patting god on the back very, very quickly.

(April 16, 2014 at 1:31 pm)smax Wrote: You could certainly work a number of variables for a very long time, no doubt about that. But, even if those variables were seemingly endless, it doesn't change the fact that life itself would probably become a bit pointless, boring, and burdensome.

That depends on what you think the point of life is. If you're the type of person who revels in new experience, it wouldn't necessarily matter how long you live for. In fact, a longer life would be better: more opportunity for new experiences.

Quote:In fact, I suspect the mere fact that one would be immortal would, in itself, speed up the journey toward boredom and pointlessness.

Each of us perceives time slightly differently at different times. It's plausible that a longer life span would 'increase' the speed at which time passes but that wouldn't necessarily speak to its 'pointlessness' or lack thereof.

Quote:And, mind you, this is all assuming that the scenario one is living within is rather ideal, which in itself is impractical. More likely some (or many) difficult circumstances would develop, weighing life's burden even more heavily.

A lot of people seek out 'negatives', gain enjoyment from facing trials & challenges. For a minority, there are even pleasures to be gained from 'destructive' scenarios.

Quote:Again, however, even in an ideal scenario, I don't believe eternal life would prove to be anything less than hell. There's a reason why us human beings love rest and relaxation and canceling plans and taking time off of work, etc., etc. We dream of eternal life, but only out of ignorance of who and what we really are. We, as individuals, are here for but a relatively short time, and then we pass on. Somewhere, deep deep down, that is a comforting end, one we hope is distant, but no less one that we eventually look forward to.

I'd suggest that the majority 'fight' for life and some people endure seemingly insurmountable struggles for the sake of staying alive as long as possible.

I think it's better to say that it's individualistic: for some it would be hell, for others, heaven and the majority would be cast somewhere in between on the distribution curve. Assuming absolute immortality, you might ask how I'd feel floating in space, alone in 800 trillion years time when the universe has expanded so much that it's reached its minimum-energy state. I'd respond by telling you that inter-universal travel across the multiverse had been developed shortly after my 1 billionth birthday so I have an infinite amount of time to enjoy an infinite number of experiences!

Look on the bright side

(April 16, 2014 at 4:18 am)smax Wrote: In conclusion, let me say this: I think it's a wonderful thing for a person to aim to live well, contribute positively to humanity, experience life to the fullest, and then rest easy with the knowledge that the next generation will have the opportunity to do it all over again, and perhaps even better.

Well, except we don't get to rest easy... We don't rest any way whatsoever. We are just gone.
Scary, huh.
I spoke with my mother today about the Christian afterlife. An eternity in heaven... Wouldn't that get a bit... boring?