(April 27, 2014 at 7:54 pm)Kitanetos Wrote:

(April 27, 2014 at 7:52 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: No problem

What proof do you want?

The same kind of proof that allows me to know that the chair in which I am sitting exists.

And I'd remind you before you get started, Frodo, that this is an exceedingly low standard of evidence for things that actually exist. The fact that you theists so often treat it as some impossible barrier that we're being unreasonable about is telling in and of itself.

(April 27, 2014 at 7:52 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(April 27, 2014 at 5:58 pm)Kitanetos Wrote: Prove that your god exists.

No problem

What proof do you want?

"Anything" not allowed. I need you to be precise.

Your diety is supposed to be omnipresent. meaning he's standing in my house right now. I'd be satisfied with walking into my living room to see a guy sitting there who knows things about me that only I would know. Then we can start talking about how good a person he really is, and if I really want to have a relationship with him.

do you believe that demons exist?

they are invisible.

So is your mind. It cannot be grasped, and located in any scientific way, yet it exists.
So is your heart. also known as the bottomless pit, because no man can know it.
And your soul? it is invisible also.

so, you have an invisible heart, an invisible mind and an invisible soul. yet you are reading these words right now. How is that? magic? Did you know, you would not be "alive" without the spirit that is breathing life into you at this very moment. Air is invisible, and all around us.
Do you deny that all these things exist, simply because you can't "see" them?

(April 27, 2014 at 6:05 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I'd actually soften the criterion, myself. Instead of proof, I'll settle for evidence. That's all; basic evidence, that substantiates the existence of whatever pet god in in question and which can only be evidence for that god and nothing else. So far, the cupboard is bare.

I'll go you one better, Stim. I'll settle for Ingersoll's criteria.

Quote:We have heard talk enough. We have listened to all the drowsy, idealess, vapid sermons that we wish to hear. We have read your Bible and the works of your best minds. We have heard your prayers, your solemn groans and your reverential amens. All these amount to less than nothing. We want one fact. We beg at the doors of your churches for just one little fact. We pass our hats along your pews and under your pulpits and implore you for just one fact. We know all about your mouldy wonders and your stale miracles. We want a this year's fact. We ask only one. Give us one fact for charity. Your miracles are too ancient. The witnesses have been dead for nearly two thousand years.
-- Robert Green Ingersoll, "The Gods" (1872)

I don't know what you mean by an invisible mind and heart. The spirit isn't passing air in and out of my body. That's my lungs. Air is invisible, but can be felt and otherwise experienced.

Seeing is only one method by which to discern things. The mind can be measured electronically and experienced subjectively.

The heart is a muscle that pumps blood. You'd certainly notice if it wasn't there, though not for long.

Air is colourless, yet we can feel it on our skin, see its effects, measure it instrumentally. Even breathe it, in a pinch.

The soul, like demons, cannot be detected by any means. Thus it would be irrational to leap to the belief that they are there. What you are doing, knowingly or not, is making a gross fallacy of equivocation - just as if I were to say "cats have four legs and a tail. My dog has four legs and a tail; therefore my dog is a cat".

(April 27, 2014 at 10:36 pm)Bronwynn Wrote: do you believe that demons exist?

They are no more real than any deity.

(April 27, 2014 at 10:36 pm)Bronwynn Wrote: they are invisible.

No, they are non-existent.

(April 27, 2014 at 10:36 pm)Bronwynn Wrote: So is your mind. It cannot be grasped, and located in any scientific way, yet it exists.

You are clearly clueless about science. No big surprise. The mind is capable of being understood.

(April 27, 2014 at 10:36 pm)Bronwynn Wrote: So is your heart.

I think heart surgery proves you wrong, unless you are referring to feelings, and in that case I state that logic is better than what one "feels".

(April 27, 2014 at 10:36 pm)Bronwynn Wrote: And your soul? it is invisible also.

It, likewise, does not exist.

(April 27, 2014 at 10:36 pm)Bronwynn Wrote: so, you have an invisible heart, an invisible mind and an invisible soul.[/quote

The brain can be seen when the head is opened, the heart can be seen when the chest is opened, and the soul is most likely just one's conscience, which can very well be evaluated and understood, though the supernatural soul does not exist.

[quote='Bronwynn' pid='658705' dateline='1398652563']
yet you are reading these words right now. How is that? magic?

You think magic, because you are incapable of seeing beyond the god delusion. No magic is involved. Life, natural life, is involved.

(April 27, 2014 at 10:36 pm)Bronwynn Wrote: Did you know, you would not be "alive" without the spirit that is breathing life into you at this very moment.

False. We are alive because of brain activity.

(April 27, 2014 at 10:36 pm)Bronwynn Wrote: Air is invisible, and all around us.

Yet we see the effects of air around us, as it ruffles tree leaves. One cannot state the same for god. His effect is no where to be seen except in the minds of men who are deluded.

So you believe that air; which is invisible, exists and is real because it can be FELT.
I didn't say the mind couldn't be understood. I said it cannot be grasped. For it is in every place, yet it is in no place. what we see in our mind are invisible images. we cannot make them into matter, because they are thoughts and images. Yet they are real, aren't they?
so if we can agree that our thoughts and images we see and hear in our mind which CANNOT BE GRASPED, are real, and the air we CANNOT SEE, but feel, are indeed real, how then can you stop there and say GIVE ME PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS BECAUSE HE CAN'T BE SEEN AND THEREFORE IS NOT REAL.
do you need to see Him, or hear Him or feel Him in order to believe?
If, so why?
Be honest.

How do you know this god is male?

Or exists at all?

(April 27, 2014 at 10:36 pm)Bronwynn Wrote: do you believe that demons exist?

they are invisible.

So is your mind. It cannot be grasped, and located in any scientific way, yet it exists.
So is your heart. also known as the bottomless pit, because no man can know it.
And your soul? it is invisible also.

so, you have an invisible heart, an invisible mind and an invisible soul. yet you are reading these words right now. How is that? magic? Did you know, you would not be "alive" without the spirit that is breathing life into you at this very moment. Air is invisible, and all around us.
Do you deny that all these things exist, simply because you can't "see" them?

The heart isn't invisible.

I've held a number in my hand. I've operated on them.

I KNOW they exist.

ANd I've never heard one referred to as a bottomless pit.