(May 23, 2014 at 12:20 pm)bladevalant546 Wrote: What you brought up is subjective. Pain is something that just happens and do plants feel pain? (http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...chamovitz/) you be the judge here. There are trees that send a pheromone to other trees to warn of a predators or other dangers (http://www2.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/762.html). Just because plants are immobile does not make them less. This is the critical error that most vegans/vegetarians make. Their while premise is based on the inductive logic about stimuli and reactions from their environment from the position of the animal kingdom. This whole axiom is founded in a bias assumption that animals are the template which we measure all life. Plants begot animal cells billions of years ago, since that split they have taken tremendously different biological paths. Thus you need to rethink on how to define a plants role and how it interacts with its environment.

Now I say that not to challenge your philosophical view, I can understand how you despise the maltreatment of animals when they are eaten. However, do not make the bias assumption that you can justify killing of one organism over another based on animal biology. It not only comes off as short sighted, it comes off either willingly dishonest, or pure cognitive dissonance. Now I do want to make emphasis that I do not disagree with the fact that it seems "wrong" that an animal feels pain when killed. There is no doubt that there is some violence involve in killing an animal. That however is a subjective view point, me personally killing quickly is honorable.

So in conclusion plants could very well be very aware of its environment and feel threatened or even in a new definition pain. I will not force you to side with me, however when you make philosophical argument to biological mechanisms. It puts you under the microscope of science to support your assertion. I merely want you expand your mind and see that in truth the real answer is in science to find a solution not a philosophical choice that winds up being subjective.

I don't think you paid enough attention to what i said.
I said...........On the other end a carrot can not pass us this high level of cruelty.
What this means?
It means that the level of pain can not be compared to the pain that animals feel when they are killed and at the same time it does not mean that plants do not feel any pain at all.
And i also said ........If you eat a fruit then the level of cruelty is nil as you are not destroying any life.
Here once again i emphasise that fruit is the only food that is not feeling any pain when eaten so it means that plants feel some pain.
Is this a bit more clear?

Unless you're trying to say that fruits are not plants, then...

... not in the slightest.

(May 21, 2014 at 10:14 am)Riketto Wrote:

(May 21, 2014 at 10:04 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: What did you have?

Wild rice with a vegetarian steak.
For drink i had sunflower milk shake (sunflower seed, lecithin, water, blended together)
Yummy.

Did you cook your wild rice and steak? There are people who insist that cooked food is unnatural and bad for our health.

The Science Of Raw Food

Quote:Scores of unnatural chemical by-products with damaging effects on health are produced by cooking. For example, cooked carbohydrates can do much more than create weight problems. They can turn into a carcinogen called acrylamide, a chemical used to make plastics and dyes that has caused cancer in animals - the higher the cooking temperature, the greater the levels of acrylamide. Frying, one of the worst kinds of cooking, makes oils oxidize creating harmful ‘free radicals’ and increasing the risk of cancer, heart disease and premature aging. Ironically, frying also destroys the Vitamins A and E which we need to protect us from free radicals.

It wasn’t always like this. Fire was only discovered a relatively short time ago in archeological terms. Before that, there was no intentional cooking at all. Even today, of the millions of species of animals and insects on the Earth, only people intentionally eat cooked food. In fact, we’ve become dependent on cooked food – addicted to it! So much so that the very idea of living on a diet of raw, uncooked, live food may even seem preposterous! “What do you eat, rabbit food?” We’ve forgotten what real food tastes like, and not so coincidently, we’ve forgotten what it feels like to be completely alive and healthy.

Then there's the problem with rice and other grains according to people who have decided they're unnatural for the human diet.

Health Dangers Of Bread, Pasta And Rice

Quote:Genetically speaking, we’re identical to our ancestors of at least 40,000 years ago. We’re hunter-gatherers, and our bodies don’t take kindly to the newfangled grains that were nonexistent in our primal diet.

Studies have revealed that cereal grains, especially wheat, maize, and barley, and dairy products contain opioid substances called exorphins. Opioid substances have a very similar sequence of amino acids to thsoe in our natural endorphins and apparently can bind to endorphin receptors in the brain… In simple terms, exorphnis produce narcotic-like and mood-altering affects and can be addictive.

Do you agree with these views about cooking and grains? After all, the people who promote these beliefs are using the same kind of arguments that you use as so called proof that meat eating is unnatural.

(May 23, 2014 at 11:58 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Unless you're trying to say that fruits are not plants, then...

This idea seems to be influenced by Jain philosophy.

Jain Vegetarianism

Quote:Also, consumption of most root vegetables involves uprooting and killing the entire plant. Whereas consumption of most terrestrial vegetables doesn't kill the plant (it lives on after plucking the vegetables or it was seasonally supposed to wither away anyway).

Eating fruit doesn't kill plants, either, because fruit is meant to fall off a plant.

(May 24, 2014 at 4:40 am)Confused Ape Wrote: Did you cook your wild rice and steak? There are people who insist that cooked food is unnatural and bad for our health.

The less we cook our food the better but i am not perfect.
I eat a lot of fruits and raw veggies that i grow in my garden
and raw macadamia nuts but i also eat some cooked foods.
I follow Sarkar suggestions when he said that alkaline food should
always be more than acidic food.
I also keep away from fry food as much as possible.

Quote:Do you agree with these views about cooking and grains? After all, the people who promote these beliefs are using the same kind of arguments that you use as so called proof that meat eating is unnatural.

I wouldn't compare grains with meat.
I agree that grains are a bit acidic but far far away from food
loaded with saturated fats, cholesterol and toxins.

Quote:Eating fruit doesn't kill plants, either, because fruit is meant to fall off a plant.

I would put it in a different way.
The tree is rather happy to give the fruit away.
After all the plant produce fruit so those who eat them
spread the seeds around.
In this way the tree will fulfil his desire to see his "children"
"taking roots".

(May 24, 2014 at 10:31 am)Riketto Wrote: I wouldn't compare grains with meat.
I agree that grains are a bit acidic but far far away from food
loaded with saturated fats, cholesterol and toxins.

What I meant by the same kind of arguments is their saying that we aren't really designed to eat grains and they can be addictive.

Quote: In simple terms, exorphnis produce narcotic-like and mood-altering affects and can be addictive.

http://cms.bsu.edu/about/administrativeo.../narcotics

Quote:Narcotics initially produce a feeling of euphoria that often is followed by drowsiness,

Did your wild rice have that effect on you?

(May 24, 2014 at 12:14 pm)Confused Ape Wrote:

(May 24, 2014 at 10:31 am)Riketto Wrote: I wouldn't compare grains with meat.
I agree that grains are a bit acidic but far far away from food
loaded with saturated fats, cholesterol and toxins.

What I meant by the same kind of arguments is their saying that we aren't really designed to eat grains and they can be addictive.

Everything got to be seen on the scale that goes from extremely bad to extremely good.
Suppose this scale goes from 0 to 10.
Zero is the worse and 10 the best.
Now the grains are a bit acidic so we can give a 5 which is
just below the sufficiency or the good.
At the same time we give a 0 for meat as this item can be compared to dung and is very acidic.
If at the same time you give a 9 to the one eating grain because that person is also eating sentient and alkaline food like fruit and raw nuts
then his mark goes from 5 to 7 which bring him up on safe and clear water.
You can also give a 9 to the one eating meat for eating also fruit and raw nuts but he will still be below the sufficiency with less than 5.
I never met anyone in my life and i never heard of anyone getting
a top mark of 10.
Let me know if you meet Mr or Mrs perfect.
If there is Mr or Mrs perfect i will swap with my guru.

Quote: In simple terms, exorphnis produce narcotic-like and mood-altering affects and can be addictive.

http://cms.bsu.edu/about/administrativeo.../narcotics

Quote:Narcotics initially produce a feeling of euphoria that often is followed by drowsiness,

Again it all boil down to the proportions in your diet between acidic and alkaline food.

Quote:Did your wild rice have that effect on you?

I only eat wild rice maybe every two weeks for the reason that is quite expensive.
I think it is imported from the US or Canada.
I usually eat organic or biodynamic locally grown brown rice twice a week and pasta once a week for the rest most of my food is alkaline so all in all i don't feel much bad effect.

(May 25, 2014 at 6:50 am)Riketto Wrote:

Quote: In simple terms, exorphnis produce narcotic-like and mood-altering affects and can be addictive.

http://cms.bsu.edu/about/administrativeo.../narcotics

Quote:Narcotics initially produce a feeling of euphoria that often is followed by drowsiness,

Again it all boil down to the proportions in your diet between acidic and alkaline food.

I can't say I've ever had a feeling of euphoria from eating rice or a slice of bread. Maybe I should change the proportions of acidic and alkaline so I can get high without being arrested.

(May 25, 2014 at 8:32 am)Confused Ape Wrote: I can't say I've ever had a feeling of euphoria from eating rice or a slice of bread. Maybe I should change the proportions of acidic and alkaline so I can get high without being arrested.

When you deal with DENIALISTS you will hear all sort of bullshit
that suppose to act as a shield against reason.
It never works but they keep on trying.
Nothing new under the stars.

(May 25, 2014 at 8:50 am)Riketto Wrote: When you deal with DENIALISTS you will hear all sort of bullshit

Yes, I know.

So let us summarise.
Denialists keep on denial.
They came up with all sort of bullshit but when i asked them
whether man can deal with saturated fat, cholesterol and toxins
nobody could come up with an answer that make sense.
Regarding whether it is my business if people eat meat (OP question)
even in this case people couldn't come up with anything that make sense.
All in all after hundred of reply the rednecks still dream that
they know what they are talking about.
Unbelievable!!!