I read this I know it's Bull But Could you refute it?
Thanks.

If you know science there is no such thing as infinite... If I have an infinite number of Dollars and I subtract 5 is there still an inifite amount or is it infinite minus 5?

Astronomers and Cosmologists agree that the universe has a beginning and is not infinite in size.. As Aristotle said the infinite is potentialized never actualized

So since we have established that there is no such thing as infinite that means the universe had a beginning there are 4 logical answers for the beginning of the universe seen and unseen;

1) the universe was created via nothing
2) the universe created itself
3) the universe was created by something which was also created
4) the universe was created by something UNCREATED

The universe cannot be created via nothing because the definition of nothing means zip zero not an atom nothing.. Your mother cannot give birth to herself... Number 3 if the universe was created by something which was created than you are implying the universe seen and unseen has an infinite past and a logical fallacy and if you believe that you ignore science... That would mean the created creator would have had a created creator which would have had a created creator and so on... We know that infinite is an impossibility so there would have had to be an Originator... The One who begets not nor is begotten

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: I read this I know it's Bull But Could you refute it?
Thanks.

If you know science there is no such thing as infinite... If I have an infinite number of Dollars and I subtract 5 is there still an inifite amount or is it infinite minus 5?

Astronomers and Cosmologists agree that the universe has a beginning and is not infinite in size.. As Aristotle said the infinite is potentialized never actualized

So since we have established that there is no such thing as infinite that means the universe had a beginning there are 4 logical answers for the beginning of the universe seen and unseen;

1) the universe was created via nothing
2) the universe created itself
3) the universe was created by something which was also created
4) the universe was created by something UNCREATED

The universe cannot be created via nothing because the definition of nothing means zip zero not an atom nothing.. Your mother cannot give birth to herself... Number 3 if the universe was created by something which was created than you are implying the universe seen and unseen has an infinite past and a logical fallacy and if you believe that you ignore science... That would mean the created creator would have had a created creator which would have had a created creator and so on... We know that infinite is an impossibility so there would have had to be an Originator... The One who begets not nor is begotten

It's just religious wordplay and nonsense. Using their own logic if "something can't come from nothing" then they need to explain where their "originator" came from.

"God is eternal and beyond space and time" is a copout.

New atheist my ass. This shit has been answered on these forums several times. Someone else can play with the new toy.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:58 pm)Cato Wrote: New atheist my ass. This shit has been answered on these forums several times. Someone else can play with the new toy.

Jesus! man. I'm Serious. Could You send me the links to where it has been answered?
Thanks.

OP, allow me to introduce you to the most powerful question we have in refuting theists: How do you know?

How does he know the universe could not have come from nothing? How does he know that there couldn't be an infinite chain of creators, and so on? Hell, more importantly, how does he know he's encompassed every possible solution to this issue?

Knowledge is demonstrated and not just asserted, so he's going to need to bring some evidence to bear, which he doesn't have. Nobody does, but the difference is that as an atheist I'm more comfortable just leaving that question at the "I don't know" stage and letting the evidence fall where it may. If someone else wants to assert things about something they can't possibly know about, then they'd better get all their shit together before they start spouting off assertions.

How does he know? The answer is that he doesn't, and his shell game relies upon you not figuring that out to work. Don't fall prey to the false dichotomy he's trying to introduce.

I second the entirety of Esquilax's post. That aside, the questions posed in the OP irritate me no end because the entire line of questioning is usually just cover for a more specific agenda. After all, it's not like there are hordes of latter-day Deists running around, trying to convince people of the reasonableness of believing in some hazily defined creator. The folks that resort to this line of argument -- in my experience, anyway -- have very specific ideas concerning that creator, and (surprise!) it almost always turns out to be the Abrahamic god. So when I am confronted with these questions, I try to avoid the sophistry and cut straight to the hidden bullshit claim: "Oh, are you talking about Yahweh (or Allah)?" If that is the person's angle, then the usual burden of evidence applies. Give me some kind of evidence that your particular deity exists and is responsible for creation. If you can't, then repeat after me, "I don't know how it all came about." End of 'discussion'.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: I read this I know it's Bull But Could you refute it?
Thanks.

Welcome.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: If you know science there is no such thing as infinite... If I have an infinite number of Dollars and I subtract 5 is there still an inifite amount or is it infinite minus 5?

How many points in a line between your eye and your finger?

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: Astronomers and Cosmologists agree that the universe has a beginning and is not infinite in size.. As Aristotle said the infinite is potentialized never actualized

But the universe has a potentially infinite future. Granted, most of it will be as an ever-more-thinly distributed cloud of photons, but there's no end in sight unless one of the collapsing universe hypotheses bears out.

And this iteration of the universe had a beginning. It hasn't been established that the universe came from nothing, only that it came from a very hot, dense, state. How long it existed in that hot, dense, state is unknown, as is whether it ever erupted into a universe before and collapsed again.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: So since we have established that there is no such thing as infinite that means the universe had a beginning there are 4 logical answers for the beginning of the universe seen and unseen;

We haven't established that there is no such thing as infinite at all.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: 1) the universe was created via nothing

Assumes a creator who creates things via nothing. It's arguable that it's meaningless to speak of no universe existing if a creator exists: the universe is the sum of all things that exist, if there's a creator, there's a universe, even if it only contains the creator.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: 2) the universe created itself

Assumes volition, doesn't it. If not, we actually don't know of a good reason why a universe couldn't come into existence spontaneously, and there are several scenarios in physics that permit it.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: 3) the universe was created by something which was also created

Could be. It's theoretically possible for us to create universes, if we ever get to that point, we will probably have robots do it for us, so it would be a case of something created by us creating a universe. It's possible something like that could have been involved with the formation of our universe.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: 4) the universe was created by something UNCREATED

Like quantum foam. The person you're responding to may be on to something here, too.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: The universe cannot be created via nothing because the definition of nothing means zip zero not an atom nothing..

There's no good reason to think it's possible for such 'philosphical nothingness' to exist. Semantically, even saying it involves a contradiction.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: Your mother cannot give birth to herself...

No kidding. You could have left out the parts of the argument that were this obviously inane as a courtesy.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: Number 3 if the universe was created by something which was created than you are implying the universe seen and unseen has an infinite past and a logical fallacy

And what logical fallacy would that be? Though, for the record, our universe being created by something created in no way implies an infinite past. There's nothing about that arrangement that says it has to go back forever. One spontaneous or eternal universe fixes that problem, and that it's a problem hasn't been established.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: and if you believe that you ignore science...

I don't think the person that came up with this is in a position to throw stones.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: That would mean the created creator would have had a created creator which would have had a created creator and so on... We know that infinite is an impossibility so there would have had to be an Originator... The One who begets not nor is begotten

Trivially easy to resolve, in two ways: One, you can break the chain at any point with an uncreated creator or a spontaneous or past-infinite universe. Two, we actually don't know that infinity is an impossibility.

Hope that helped!

Let them know that our understanding of cause and effect breaks down when time does not exist. Yes, everything must come from something, something that preceded it. How can one thing come before something else if time literally doesn't exist?

The truth is that the "everything must come from something" principle is a temporal observation that isn't applicable when t = 0.

(May 29, 2014 at 4:09 pm)Esquilax Wrote: OP, allow me to introduce you to the most powerful question we have in refuting theists: How do you know?

How does he know the universe could not have come from nothing? How does he know that there couldn't be an infinite chain of creators, and so on? Hell, more importantly, how does he know he's encompassed every possible solution to this issue?

Knowledge is demonstrated and not just asserted, so he's going to need to bring some evidence to bear, which he doesn't have. Nobody does, but the difference is that as an atheist I'm more comfortable just leaving that question at the "I don't know" stage and letting the evidence fall where it may. If someone else wants to assert things about something they can't possibly know about, then they'd better get all their shit together before they start spouting off assertions.

How does he know? The answer is that he doesn't, and his shell game relies upon you not figuring that out to work. Don't fall prey to the false dichotomy he's trying to introduce.

Well said.

---

(May 29, 2014 at 4:34 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: I read this I know it's Bull But Could you refute it?
Thanks.

Welcome.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: If you know science there is no such thing as infinite... If I have an infinite number of Dollars and I subtract 5 is there still an inifite amount or is it infinite minus 5?

How many points in a line between your eye and your finger?

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: Astronomers and Cosmologists agree that the universe has a beginning and is not infinite in size.. As Aristotle said the infinite is potentialized never actualized

But the universe has a potentially infinite future. Granted, most of it will be as an ever-more-thinly distributed cloud of photons, but there's no end in sight unless one of the collapsing universe hypotheses bears out.

And this iteration of the universe had a beginning. It hasn't been established that the universe came from nothing, only that it came from a very hot, dense, state. How long it existed in that hot, dense, state is unknown, as is whether it ever erupted into a universe before and collapsed again.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: So since we have established that there is no such thing as infinite that means the universe had a beginning there are 4 logical answers for the beginning of the universe seen and unseen;

We haven't established that there is no such thing as infinite at all.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: 1) the universe was created via nothing

Assumes a creator who creates things via nothing. It's arguable that it's meaningless to speak of no universe existing if a creator exists: the universe is the sum of all things that exist, if there's a creator, there's a universe, even if it only contains the creator.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: 2) the universe created itself

Assumes volition, doesn't it. If not, we actually don't know of a good reason why a universe couldn't come into existence spontaneously, and there are several scenarios in physics that permit it.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: 3) the universe was created by something which was also created

Could be. It's theoretically possible for us to create universes, if we ever get to that point, we will probably have robots do it for us, so it would be a case of something created by us creating a universe. It's possible something like that could have been involved with the formation of our universe.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: 4) the universe was created by something UNCREATED

Like quantum foam. The person you're responding to may be on to something here, too.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: The universe cannot be created via nothing because the definition of nothing means zip zero not an atom nothing..

There's no good reason to think it's possible for such 'philosphical nothingness' to exist. Semantically, even saying it involves a contradiction.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: Your mother cannot give birth to herself...

No kidding. You could have left out the parts of the argument that were this obviously inane as a courtesy.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: Number 3 if the universe was created by something which was created than you are implying the universe seen and unseen has an infinite past and a logical fallacy

And what logical fallacy would that be? Though, for the record, our universe being created by something created in no way implies an infinite past. There's nothing about that arrangement that says it has to go back forever. One spontaneous or eternal universe fixes that problem, and that it's a problem hasn't been established.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: and if you believe that you ignore science...

I don't think the person that came up with this is in a position to throw stones.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: That would mean the created creator would have had a created creator which would have had a created creator and so on... We know that infinite is an impossibility so there would have had to be an Originator... The One who begets not nor is begotten

Trivially easy to resolve, in two ways: One, you can break the chain at any point with an uncreated creator or a spontaneous or past-infinite universe. Two, we actually don't know that infinity is an impossibility.

Hope that helped!

I think a Bro hug is in order.

I feel like it do this at least once a week here...but here goes lol.

Turns out the universe can come from literally nothing. Check out the book "A Universe From Nothing - Why There is Something Rather Than Nothing" by Dr. Laurence Krauss.

http://www.amazon.com/Universe-Nothing-T...an+nothing