(June 20, 2014 at 10:33 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Yeah, it's all good. If you don't mind, that's fine. I just personally have a beef with a series that takes too long in my opinion. I guess it's all about efficiency, which is making high quality work in the shortest amount of time. if your masterpiece takes longer than most people's, then it's not very efficient. Even if it is higher quality than most other's work.

You go to a restaurant and order a burger. You can have a good burger in fifteen minutes, or a great burger in thirty. Depending on how hungry you are, you may or may not be fine with waiting longer for a better meal.

I can wait quite a while

But, a burger, even a complex one, has a pretty simple recipe. Sometimes the author can write themselves into a corner and not know how to get out. Or their muse can flee. These things, only time or forced words can fix. For some, forced words may be ok, but to me they'll ring hollow. Stephen Kings "Dark Tower" comes to mind. The accident that nearly killed him made him fear that he would die with the books un-written. I believe the writing suffered for it. "The Wind Through the Keyhole" is the best written post accident "Dark Tower" book in the series. Not originally being an intended part of the tale, he didn't feel pressured to "get it done before he died" and the writing style is much more relaxed and in tune with the pre-accident books.

All said and done, it's still just my tuppence.

(June 20, 2014 at 8:30 pm)GalacticBusDriver Wrote: It greatly saddens me that Brandon Sanderson was selected to complete that series. Those are books I will never read because I cannot get through that crap to save my life. I've tried twice. The first time I got half-way through the fourth book and the second time I managed to muscle through 'til about the halfway point of the sixth. I know many people read and enjoy them. Perhaps it's just me (thought I'm a huge fantasy fan) or perhaps I see over the top derivation where others don't.

The seventh through tenth books are rather poor (especially the tenth). They're huge and meandering and in those 4,000 pages or so, there is disturbingly little plot advancement or character development. I have not actually read anything of Sanderson outside of the last three WoT books, but I thought he was a markedly superior writer than Jordan.

As far as how derivative the story was, eh. It didn't bother me nearly as much as the enormous chunks of nothing happening. I was entertained enough through the first few that I was willing to see it through to the end.

Has anyone here ever read any Ray Feist? He was my first adult fantasy love (though I kind of fell out of love with the Riftwar books after the Serpentwar Saga).

(June 20, 2014 at 11:36 pm)GalacticBusDriver Wrote: But, a burger, even a complex one, has a pretty simple recipe. Sometimes the author can write themselves into a corner and not know how to get out. Or their muse can flee. These things, only time or forced words can fix. For some, forced words may be ok, but to me they'll ring hollow. Stephen Kings "Dark Tower" comes to mind. The accident that nearly killed him made him fear that he would die with the books un-written. I believe the writing suffered for it. "The Wind Through the Keyhole" is the best written post accident "Dark Tower" book in the series. Not originally being an intended part of the tale, he didn't feel pressured to "get it done before he died" and the writing style is much more relaxed and in tune with the pre-accident books.

All said and done, it's still just my tuppence.

Maybe my analogy wasn't the best. In the Animorphs books I mentioned before, half of them are ghostwritten, and when K.A. Applegate comes back to do the last couple of books it seems she's lost sight of what the characters and such are about. She kills one off at the end for "realism", and the ending for the rest seem to be determined by how much they actually wanted to fight the Yeerks, as Applegate tries to force an anti-war message. Then she sends most of them off to a Bolivian Army ending to send the message that "stories never end", when I'm pretty sure they do.

While giving extra time can allow an author to bring good quality work, taking too long with your story can make you lose sight of it.

(June 21, 2014 at 3:59 am)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: The seventh through tenth books are rather poor (especially the tenth). They're huge and meandering and in those 4,000 pages or so, there is disturbingly little plot advancement or character development. I have not actually read anything of Sanderson outside of the last three WoT books, but I thought he was a markedly superior writer than Jordan.

As far as how derivative the story was, eh. It didn't bother me nearly as much as the enormous chunks of nothing happening. I was entertained enough through the first few that I was willing to see it through to the end.

Has anyone here ever read any Ray Feist? He was my first adult fantasy love (though I kind of fell out of love with the Riftwar books after the Serpentwar Saga).

I can't say I was really entertained by WoT past the first one. Meh. Different strokes.

Sanderson, on the other hand, has been immensely entertaining. Every time he starts a new fantasy world, he creates a completely new magical system. They are always well explained and thought out. Which brings us to the one criticism I have of him. He does tend to over explain how those systems work. Once at the beginning is plenty Brandon!!!

I haven't read any Feist yet, but he's been recommended to me several times. Any particular book I should look for? Any I should avoid?

(June 21, 2014 at 10:13 am)Chad32 Wrote: Maybe my analogy wasn't the best. In the Animorphs books I mentioned before, half of them are ghostwritten, and when K.A. Applegate comes back to do the last couple of books it seems she's lost sight of what the characters and such are about. She kills one off at the end for "realism", and the ending for the rest seem to be determined by how much they actually wanted to fight the Yeerks, as Applegate tries to force an anti-war message. Then she sends most of them off to a Bolivian Army ending to send the message that "stories never end", when I'm pretty sure they do.

Analogies are inherently flawed. But, they're a useful tool for getting a point across. I took your point. I'd just prefer to wait for the awesome burger, even if I'm hungry!

I've never read any of the "Animorphs" books, but I think something similar is happening in "The Song of Ice and Fire." Martin seems to have lost his direction and the latest book was a train wreck. In his case though, I think he just has too much on his plate with his writing, editing (short story collections and "Wild Card" books) and helping out over at HBO on "Game of Thrones" production.

(June 21, 2014 at 10:13 am)Chad32 Wrote: While giving extra time can allow an author to bring good quality work, taking too long with your story can make you lose sight of it.

This is certainly a danger. The "Exiles" series I mentioned by Melanie Rawn may wind up being a good example. I'm beginning to believe it'll never happen. Still, I'll take that over a hack job, rushed to finish it. My imaginings about how it all turns out are probably better.

(June 21, 2014 at 4:15 pm)GalacticBusDriver Wrote: I haven't read any Feist yet, but he's been recommended to me several times. Any particular book I should look for? Any I should avoid?

I wouldn't say there are any that should necessarily be avoided (almost everything Feist has written is a part of his Riftwar Cycle meta-series and that's like two dozen books). I would start with Magician (it is often sold in paperback split into two books, Magician: Apprentice and Magician: Master). If you found Jordan derivative, you should be forewarned that these books start out even more adherent to fantasy conventions and don't tend to stray terribly far.

If that doesn't interest you, he and Janny Wurts co-authored the Empire Trilogy, which focuses on political intrigue amongst the initial antagonists of the Riftwar books. They are related to the main series and reference it on occasion, but for the most part, you can enjoy them on their own, and they are a lot less reliant on standard fantasy tropes. It's basically a lighter, softer Game of Thrones.

If I was to give Sanderson a try on his own merits, where would you suggest I begin?

(June 21, 2014 at 4:30 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: I wouldn't say there are any that should necessarily be avoided (almost everything Feist has written is a part of his Riftwar Cycle meta-series and that's like two dozen books). I would start with Magician (it is often sold in paperback split into two books, Magician: Apprentice and Magician: Master). If you found Jordan derivative, you should be forewarned that these books start out even more adherent to fantasy conventions and don't tend to stray terribly far.

I'll look up some Feist. My eBook makes finding new stuff sooooo much easier!

If Jordan had contented himself with sticking to conventions, he'd have been a much better writer. It was the constant "King Arthur Legend vs. Tolkien's Orcs" theme he had going on that made me think he was too derivative.

(June 21, 2014 at 4:30 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: If that doesn't interest you, he and Janny Wurts co-authored the Empire Trilogy, which focuses on political intrigue amongst the initial antagonists of the Riftwar books. They are related to the main series and reference it on occasion, but for the most part, you can enjoy them on their own, and they are a lot less reliant on standard fantasy tropes. It's basically a lighter, softer Game of Thrones.

This sounds very good!

(June 21, 2014 at 4:30 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: If I was to give Sanderson a try on his own merits, where would you suggest I begin?

Tough call! "Elantris" is the first of his I ever read. Straight up fantasy with epic world building. Then I found the "Mistborn" trilogy. Note: "The Alloy of Law" is a Mistborn book, but not part of the series. I comes much later. Either of these would be good starting points. If you like YA fiction, the "Alcatraz" books are quite good. For epic fantasy, go with "The Stormlight Archives." These are truly epic tales both in style and in scope. The first two in the series are both 1000+ page monsters but well paced and very good reads. If you like super-hero fiction, his "Reckoners" series would be a good starting place. The world has seen the rise of supers (which Sanderson calls "Epics") but it's not all sunshine and rainbows. There are only super-villians. No super-heros. Only the Reckoners. It starts with "Steelheart" and the second, "Firefight," is due out this fall.

Now that I've recommended damn near everything he's written as a good place to start, I guess I'll just have to say "There's no bad place to start."