haha, No, Min. Just no.

(May 17, 2010 at 10:58 am)Paul the Human Wrote:

(May 17, 2010 at 10:24 am)John_S3V Wrote: I think it's a mystery, because the exact reasons are unique to every person. It can't be explained in a couple sentences. It'd probably take a book for each person to explain their specific reasons for whether or not god fits into their reality.

This is quite true, individually. What I find interesting is that, no matter how individually personal each viewpoint may be to each individual, they come to one of two conclusions... not a wide variety of personal ones. They either believe the claim that god exists... or they do not believe it. There are a wide variety of interpretations of both sides, but the core difference is that single belief. God does/does not exist.

I think the question of 'why is that?' is very important. We can argue back and forth over whether god does or does not exist, we can go round and round about the semantics of certain words, the veracity of the bible(s), and micro-philosophize about the definition of 'god' until we're blue in the face. Each side only becomes stronger in its personal belief. What is different about us? I don't think any of us can answer that to my satisfaction. I'm beginning to think it is related to brain function. Still. I'd like to know. Heheh.

I don't think the conclusions are as cut and dry as they seem. Christians are widely divided on even their own beliefs. But, as for the conclusions, 'god or no god', I think that a lot of atheists call themselves atheists, because they don't believe in YHWH or anything else that humanity has cooked up in its head. That's not to say that their isn't something else out there. I usually call myself agnostic despite the fact that I don't believe for a moment that YHWH could possibly exist. The reason I call myself agnostic is because I can't tell you where the universe came from. I can't say with all certainty that some sort of god-like entity didn't create the universe. Maybe there is something, something completely unfathomable and unlike anything we've ever even imagined that's responsible for all this and we're just yet to discover it. I have no clue.

There's a lot of unanswered questions about this universe. If you think large scale you can ask questions like where the galaxy came from and if the big bang is a satisfying answer then where'd that come from, or more specifically, where'd the elements needed to create it come from? Or, you can think small scale like what properties makes a proton positive and what properties make up those properties? We keep discovering smaller and smaller things. Molecules, atoms, subatomic particles, elementary particles... if you keep asking enough why's eventually you'll simply get, 'Because that's how it is.'

I certainly don't think YHWH is behind all this sophistication, but it baffles my mind trying to imagine how everything is ultimately explained. There's no telling what kind of unfathomable truths may lie in the beginning and the end. I don't pretend to know because I have no desire to take away the mystery of the universe. It's a puzzle that will surely keep humanity busy for centuries and centuries to come.

(May 17, 2010 at 11:33 am)Watson Wrote: haha, No, Min. Just no.

Hey, he's your god. You can make him do whatever tricks you want him to do.


The sky's the limit.

@John_S3V: That is all a very good description of agnostic views... and I agree that we cannot know any of those things at this juncture, or if we ever will know them. I'm not talking about 'knowing', though. I'm talking about belief or the lack thereof. I do not 'know' if there is a god or not, but I do not 'believe' that there is. I'll go so far as to say that I 'believe' that there is not. Believing does not mean the same as knowing.

In general (there will always be exceptions), people... as a group... either believe that there is a god... or they do not. An agnostic atheist does not. He doesn't claim to know for sure, but the word atheist means he does not believe that god exists. At least that what it would seem to mean to me. Something happens that causes one to cross the line from belief to non-belief (or vice-versa). One thing makes that happen and I suspect that it is explainable scientifically.

(May 17, 2010 at 12:27 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: @John_S3V: That is all a very good description of agnostic views... and I agree that we cannot know any of those things at this juncture, or if we ever will know them. I'm not talking about 'knowing', though. I'm talking about belief or the lack thereof. I do not 'know' if there is a god or not, but I do not 'believe' that there is. I'll go so far as to say that I 'believe' that there is not. Believing does not mean the same as knowing.

In general (there will always be exceptions), people... as a group... either believe that there is a god... or they do not. An agnostic atheist does not. He doesn't claim to know for sure, but the word atheist means he does not believe that god exists. At least that what it would seem to mean to me. Something happens that causes one to cross the line from belief to non-belief (or vice-versa). One thing makes that happen and I suspect that it is explainable scientifically.

Definately, but I don't think humanity understands the mind well enough to discern the individual components that lead a person either way. No doubt neuroscience is on the right track, but I think there's a lot more components than that. No doubt upbringing and experience plays a role. One things for sure though, I don't think anyone is going to be able to examine their brain well enough to give a real clear cut answer.

Perhaps there is a tiny neurological switch in the centre of our minds and there are sub-switches on either side of the main switch that need to be switched in order for the switch to move. One side of the switch is NO GOD and the other is YES, GOD! Everytime an atheist and a christian argue it's like they're trying to toggle each other's main switch without going after all the sub-switches that are neccessary for allowing the main switch to move. I think some of those sub-switches are purely innate and can't be altered without a lobotomy or something.

(May 17, 2010 at 9:55 am)Paul the Human Wrote: Overall, I have not been completely honest about my feelings and neither have fr0d0 and Watson. If we were to be perfectly frank, we would probably insult the hell out of each other. Heheh. You don’t want to know what I really think of the belief in invisible sky-daddies. Luckily, I am not the type of person to hold someone’s delusions against them as a person (and I don’t believe they are, either). *grins*

Well at this moment in time I can assure you I have no hidden agenda of hatred. I accept yours is a logical position when discounting those illogicalities, it's still logical. I can be drawn to insults as well as anybody, well ok a lot of ppl sometimes

Paul, I agree that this is an intriguing topic, but I think it's a bit like asking a schizophrenic why they have multiple personalities - when they don't realize that they do. The best bet is to do some research on chemical reactions in the brain when religious activity is concerned. I wouldn't be surprised if there was more information there than there is here, by just asking theists why their belief system differs from yours.

(May 17, 2010 at 12:34 pm)John_S3V Wrote: Perhaps there is a tiny neurological switch in the centre of our minds and there are sub-switches on either side of the main switch that need to be switched in order for the switch to move. One side of the switch is NO GOD and the other is YES, GOD! Everytime an atheist and a christian argue it's like they're trying to toggle each other's main switch without going after all the sub-switches that are neccessary for allowing the main switch to move. I think some of those sub-switches are purely innate and can't be altered without a lobotomy or something.

That makes me a floating voter, predisposed to atheism. Personally I wouldn't be so generalist (sets that switch to "disabled" )

(May 17, 2010 at 9:55 am)Paul the Human Wrote: I had to go back a few pages to find it, but I didn’t miss your post, Godschild! I’ll break it down into easily digestible chunks in my response.

[quote='Godschild' pid='70750' dateline='1274050682']
Now at this point there will be those who find they dislike who they percieve God to be (controlling tyrant, uncaring, murderer and ect.) and there faith is lost and there goes their belief. This may take several years or even a decade or so before it happens but for some it will and IMO it's because they never reached out to experience God. So now the road has split again and they also become nonbelievers.

Quote:I do see that god is represented as a “controlling tyrant, uncaring, murderer, and etc.”, as you said, but that is not why I do not believe the claims that he is real. If anything, it makes me wonder why anyone would want him to be real… but I digress. You do not seem to understand that there are other reasons people might become ‘nonbelievers’.

I did indeed “reach out to experience god”. I used to fully believe that it was all true. I would pray to god, to Jesus, to Mary… asking them to bless this person or that person, to give me guidance. I invited them into my heart and asked them to accept my unworthy soul into the kingdom of heaven. I gave them credit for the beauty of a rainbow and the ‘miracle’ of life. All that. Then I began to ask questions, because I realized that most of what I had read and been told did not make any sense. Eventually, I stopped believing any of it was true. From my perspective, I finally opened my eyes and allowed myself the experience of reality, unclouded by superstition… and, without dogma, it all made sense again.

Paul I do understand that people have other reasons not to believe, like believeing in another god or a religion that has no deity and ect. Billy Graham's partner in ministry gave up His belief in God because he could not understand why God allowed little childern to suffer. I do understand.
I thank you for being honest about your experience with God and I've read over it several times and I see from my experience with other christians you seem to share a common belief, you believe all that there is to christianity is prayer for others and yourself, that what the Bible says is true and the invitation for Christ to come into your heart. Now all of that is a good start but where is the experiential relationship I do not see where you were involved with God in His work for mankind. You did not say if your prayers were answered. Did you look to see were God was working so you might get involved, God intends for use to be involves in His work. God has chosen to work through man and I do not mean He forces us He allows us to exercise our freewill and either join in or set on the sidelines. If we decide to set on the sidelines God will find others to join in His work. I know this from a personal experience and I've regreted missing out on such a great opportunity to work with childeren. I know you think I'm a nutcase but I believe this is the reason people come to different conclusions about the same God some stop before they truly get to know Him and some follow on until they see who God really is.

Quote:I certainly wouldn't cling to blatantly irrational reasoning such as the no empirical evidence joke -

That is an unnecessary ad homimen ---and where we differ at a fundamental level.

A Skeptic and materialist, I assert truth cannot be inferred from reason alone.I demand proof. To dismiss my position as 'a joke' is a typical apologist ad homimem.

Quote:If anyone presented me with a rational dismissal of any ideas I'd have to take that on and change - how could I not? I cannot deny what my brain understands to be true.

You give the lie to that claim in almost every post. From long observation I've concluded you have a limited capacity for either independent or critical thinking,instead relying on bloody minded dogmatism. It is your intransigent position which is the joke my friend.