(July 20, 2014 at 4:58 pm)Confused Ape Wrote:

(July 20, 2014 at 4:17 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It might be a situation akin to osmosis (acknowledging that there are problems with that comparison as well).

Could you explain the bolded bit, please. I'm not sure what you mean here.

NP. I'll start off by mentioning that using any comparison to our biology is troublesome from the view of centrism. This is in the context of a thought experiment, mind you, concerning what is possible.

When we imagine that intelligent beings must have some method to communicate their ideas - we're actually leaving a whole host of things unsaid. That they have "ideas" as such, or that they "communicate" indeed that they even recognize the others existence. We understand that chemicals can be used as biological triggers - that they convey information, and we understand that a process like osmosis is at least possible (the mechanics of it, not the specifics). Plants "communicate" information chemically and then "act" on the contents of those messages - even in the absence of any sort of "self awareness" or even awareness of others with which they are interfacing. Machines responding to levers which produce an eerily similar effect to our own consciousness when distilled. So it's not something beyond the pale even here, on our rock - we could be left without words to describe a similar sort of setup in an alien species that evolved in a gas giant (of which there are plenty more than earthlike planets...so far as we can tell). Perhaps they're floating around absorbing the communal knowledge of every member of their lineage that has ever existed without realizing that any of those messages originate from another member of their species - or having any desire to be the originators of a message themselves.

(July 20, 2014 at 4:58 pm)Confused Ape Wrote:

(July 20, 2014 at 4:17 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It might be a situation akin to osmosis (acknowledging that there are problems with that comparison as well).

Could you explain the bolded bit, please. I'm not sure what you mean here.

NP. I'll start off by mentioning that using any comparison to our biology is troublesome from the view of centrism. This is in the context of a thought experiment, mind you, concerning what is possible.

When we imagine that intelligent beings must have some method to communicate their ideas - we're actually leaving a whole host of things unsaid. That they have "ideas" as such, or that they "communicate" indeed that they even recognize the others existence. We understand that chemicals can be used as biological triggers - that they convey information, and we understand that a process like osmosis is at least possible (the mechanics of it, not the specifics). Plants "communicate" information chemically and then "act" on the contents of those messages - even in the absence of any sort of "self awareness" or even awareness of others with which they are interfacing. Machines responding to levers which produce an eerily similar effect to our own consciousness when distilled. So it's not something beyond the pale even here, on our rock - we could be left without words to describe a similar sort of setup in an alien species that evolved in a gas giant (of which there are plenty more than earthlike planets...so far as we can tell). Perhaps they're floating around absorbing the communal knowledge of every member of their lineage that has ever existed without realizing that any of those messages originate from another member of their species - or having any desire to be the originators of a message themselves.

-We- communicate because it is advantageous for us to do so, but only by reference to our very specific environments and lineage. There's no need to imagine that communication has a tight bond (can't have one without the other) with intelligence beyond the specifics of the challenges we faced - that led to a creature capable of communication or even of considering such a concept. It may not even hold true on this rock, let alone some place that would remove any suspicion of anthropocentrism.

It's difficult imagining what a super intelligent dinosaur would have been like because we don't know that much about them. There's speculation that some of them were warm blooded while other species might have hunted in packs. It's also seems generally agreed that birds evolved from dinosaurs, too.

Wolves communicate with sound, body language and scent. Birds use sound and body language. Meanwhile, chimps and gorillas can't speak but they can learn to communicate with sign language.

What might a super intelligent dinosaur have used? It's impossible to tell because who knows how this species might have evolved over 65 million years.

(July 20, 2014 at 11:16 am)bennyboy Wrote: You need to stop pulling "facts" out of your ass, and spend some effort doing research that properly controls for these variables. If you don't, you're just another ignorant asshole with opinions founded on a hunch. I propose that I and everyone else in this thread respond to you only in terms of a list of basic logic errors that you make in each post. There's no need to address your ideas, because they are not connected to any identifiable reality.

Direct experience is much better than your NON-direct.
You haven't got a clue about medical situations.
If you would see a slim person who just had an heart attack or a stroke you wouldn't even think that it is because he is obese inside.
Not understanding medical situations will lead to unnecessary death.
Luckily idiots with no direct experience are not allow inside hospitals.




http://healthyliving.msn.com/diseases/he...e-inside-1
“People get so obsessed with how much they weigh and what they look like, and they think that if they are thin, then they are healthy,” Bell said. “But you can’t judge by how you look, because you can’t tell what’s on the inside by looking on the outside.”

---

(July 20, 2014 at 8:37 pm)rasetsu Wrote: Moron.

Your arrogance and stupidity is behind belief.
You believe any hypothesis that is coming from wiki.
As in the past you believe that Sarkar was guilty just because he was jailed you would have believed that Christ was guilty just because the Jews said so.
For Christ sake stop masturbating your brain and try to do some more researches before you come down with the usual garbage.

You are a very confusing person.

Your argument seems to be that meat causes problems with heart disease, but you link an article that talks about the problems with thin people with metabolic syndrome. A two second google search pinpointed insulin resistance and one of the leading causes of metabolic syndrome. Insulin resistance is caused by, again, processed carbohydrates and starches (ok, to be fair it's caused by prolonged diet problems with elevated blood sugar and foods with high glycemic indexes. This does however simplify to carbs and starch). I have done a great deal of reading into this subject, since my family has thyroid issues and my father has been diagnosed with diabetes. Guess what the doctors recommend for our diet. Protein. A lot of it. And little to no starches.

Heart disease also has strong links to stress, smoking, drug use. When you say more omnivores show up with heart problems my answer will be that a disproportionate amount of those will probably be smokers or former smokers. A large number will also have diets heavy in starchy corn products, since corn is cheap.

(July 20, 2014 at 12:03 pm)Confused Ape Wrote: After reading through that article it seems that the shift is another natural event and nobody really knows what causes it.

In the history of this planet has never been experienced a man-made disaster of the kind that we are talking about.
So we only had natural events.
Now the situation has changed and man-made disasters are a reality.
Very funny.
Just few days ago when i first talk about the pole shift people were abusing me for talking rubbish.
Now that people discovered what a pole shift is they talk in a different way. The middle ages of ignorance are still here, how sad.

Quote:There's been enough research in neuroscience to show that all kinds of things can affect the human brain and cause hallucinations or religious visions. If those electromagnetic vibrations really do get underway, a lot more people could be seeing ghosts and UFOs.

As Sarkar said things can go either way in the positive or the negative so people can either go mad or get better and open themselves to spirituality.

Quote:And we kept on eating meat because we never lost the ability to do so.

We also got the ability to steal, kill and pick our nose.
We can do a lot of strange things, however the problem with that is that at the end there will be a bill to pay.

Quote:Turning vegetarian didn't make Hitler more spiritual -

There are a lot of stories about this guy.
Some are real some are bullshit.
In any case a veg. diet always help.
Hitler was a loser so he got into the army which is well known for turning losers into dangerous fanatics.
By the way can you tell me where Hitler got the idea of the svastika?
(obviously i expect you not to look in a search engine, Ok?)

Quote:According to legend. This isn't the same as proof that he actually existed and did all these things. After all, the Egyptian goddess Isis is supposed to have taught humans things like weaving and agriculture but that legend doesn't prove she really existed.

If you go to Varanasi there are temples dedicated to Shiva in almost
every corner and almost every house has got a small place with Shiva
statues.
Varanasi or Benares how people call it appear to be the older city on planet earth according recent studies.
Now how is possible that in India million of people follow someone who never existed?
Many people also say that Christ never existed.
I wasn't there to witness so i can really say.
On the other hand who suppose to have left all these teaching related to these people?

(July 20, 2014 at 7:39 am)Riketto Wrote: Leonardo DaVinci, Einstein and so many other follow and the list is too long to write.

Quote:You're making the claim so it's up to you to write the list along with giving links to proof that all these people you're talking about really were vegetarians.

I don't have any proof.
I think they all tell lies.
http://vegetarian.procon.org/view.resour...eID=004527
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetarians

Quote:In other words you just believe anything that suits your outlook even if there's no proof to support it.

People eating meat sweat a lot and their sweat stink.
But there are other way to feel who is who.
By the way they speak or act or by a natural attraction or repulsion.

(July 20, 2014 at 7:39 am)Riketto Wrote: Natural phenomena are not nature mistakes.
Everyone who born is due to die and this apply also to planets and stars.

Quote:That's part of the system. Humans evolved to be omnivores under nature's system so that's natural as well. If we aren't supposed to be omnivores then nature did make a mistake with us.

What a confusion Ape!
Man is not like an animal that is 100% instinct driven.
Man has got also the capacity to decide so the instinct does not play a big part like in animals.
This capacity to decide can be dangerous if we make the wrong decision.
We can take decisions that go against nature and if we do mother nature has really nothing to do with it.
It can not be said that that mistake was her fault.

Quote:Dinosaurs were all sizes. If they hadn't been wiped out, one of the species could have evolved consciousness equal to human consciousness. I don't imagine there's any universal law that says only an ape species could have evolved our style of consciousness.

Some people say that birds evolved from the dinosaurs.
Anyway i think it is quite unlikely that any other species other than the primates could evolve into humans.

(July 20, 2014 at 7:39 am)Riketto Wrote: Here we have hypothesis from a materialistic-scientific point of view

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_shift_hypothesis

(July 21, 2014 at 7:46 am)Riketto Wrote: Your arrogance and stupidity is behind belief.
You believe any hypothesis that is coming from wiki.

You were the one citing Wikipedia in support of your argument. I simply showed that the entry you cited didn't support you.

So you're both a moron and a hypocrite.

(July 21, 2014 at 9:13 am)Riketto Wrote:

(July 20, 2014 at 12:03 pm)Confused Ape Wrote: After reading through that article it seems that the shift is another natural event and nobody really knows what causes it.

In the history of this planet has never been experienced a man-made disaster of the kind that we are talking about.
So we only had natural events.
Now the situation has changed and man-made disasters are a reality.
Very funny.
Just few days ago when i first talk about the pole shift people were abusing me for talking rubbish.
Now that people discovered what a pole shift is they talk in a different way. The middle ages of ignorance are still here, how sad.

Quote:There's been enough research in neuroscience to show that all kinds of things can affect the human brain and cause hallucinations or religious visions. If those electromagnetic vibrations really do get underway, a lot more people could be seeing ghosts and UFOs.

As Sarkar said things can go either way in the positive or the negative so people can either go mad or get better and open themselves to spirituality.

Quote:And we kept on eating meat because we never lost the ability to do so.

We also got the ability to steal, kill and pick our nose.
We can do a lot of strange things, however the problem with that is that at the end there will be a bill to pay.

Quote:Turning vegetarian didn't make Hitler more spiritual -

There are a lot of stories about this guy.
Some are real some are bullshit.
In any case a veg. diet always help.
Hitler was a loser so he got into the army which is well known for turning losers into dangerous fanatics.
By the way can you tell me where Hitler got the idea of the svastika?
(obviously i expect you not to look in a search engine, Ok?)

Quote:According to legend. This isn't the same as proof that he actually existed and did all these things. After all, the Egyptian goddess Isis is supposed to have taught humans things like weaving and agriculture but that legend doesn't prove she really existed.

If you go to Varanasi there are temples dedicated to Shiva in almost
every corner and almost every house has got a small place with Shiva
statues.
Varanasi or Benares how people call it appear to be the older city on planet earth according recent studies.
Now how is possible that in India million of people follow someone who never existed?
Many people also say that Christ never existed.
I wasn't there to witness so i can really say.
On the other hand who suppose to have left all these teaching related to these people?

(July 20, 2014 at 7:39 am)Riketto Wrote: Leonardo DaVinci, Einstein and so many other follow and the list is too long to write.

Quote:You're making the claim so it's up to you to write the list along with giving links to proof that all these people you're talking about really were vegetarians.

I don't have any proof.
I think they all tell lies.
http://vegetarian.procon.org/view.resour...eID=004527
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetarians

Quote:In other words you just believe anything that suits your outlook even if there's no proof to support it.

People eating meat sweat a lot and their sweat stink.
But there are other way to feel who is who.
By the way they speak or act or by a natural attraction or repulsion.

(July 20, 2014 at 7:39 am)Riketto Wrote: Natural phenomena are not nature mistakes.
Everyone who born is due to die and this apply also to planets and stars.

Quote:That's part of the system. Humans evolved to be omnivores under nature's system so that's natural as well. If we aren't supposed to be omnivores then nature did make a mistake with us.

What a confusion Ape!
Man is not like an animal that is 100% instinct driven.
Man has got also the capacity to decide so the instinct does not play a big part like in animals.
This capacity to decide can be dangerous if we make the wrong decision.
We can take decisions that go against nature and if we do mother nature has really nothing to do with it.
It can not be said that that mistake was her fault.

Quote:Dinosaurs were all sizes. If they hadn't been wiped out, one of the species could have evolved consciousness equal to human consciousness. I don't imagine there's any universal law that says only an ape species could have evolved our style of consciousness.

Some people say that birds evolved from the dinosaurs.
Anyway i think it is quite unlikely that any other species other than the primates could evolve into humans.

My brain..it hurts us...

(July 21, 2014 at 8:51 am)Natachan Wrote: You are a very confusing person.

Your argument seems to be that meat causes problems with heart disease, but you link an article that talks about the problems with thin people with metabolic syndrome. A two second google search pinpointed insulin resistance and one of the leading causes of metabolic syndrome. Insulin resistance is caused by, again, processed carbohydrates and starches (ok, to be fair it's caused by prolonged diet problems with elevated blood sugar and foods with high glycemic indexes. This does however simplify to carbs and starch). I have done a great deal of reading into this subject, since my family has thyroid issues and my father has been diagnosed with diabetes. Guess what the doctors recommend for our diet. Protein. A lot of it. And little to no starches.

Heart disease also has strong links to stress, smoking, drug use. When you say more omnivores show up with heart problems my answer will be that a disproportionate amount of those will probably be smokers or former smokers. A large number will also have diets heavy in starchy corn products, since corn is cheap.

Meat is not the only cause of heart attack and strokes but it is the main cause.
As you say there are other factors as well.
Take the south pacific islanders.
They go mad for corn beef in the tin which is something that has been introduced by the white man.
Not many of them smoke or are under stress but most of them got diabetes and many are victims of heart attack and strokes.
They have always eaten a diet high on starches and they still do but why is that they got sick only when they started eating meat in the tin?

---

(July 21, 2014 at 9:15 am)rasetsu Wrote:

(July 21, 2014 at 7:46 am)Riketto Wrote: Your arrogance and stupidity is behind belief.
You believe any hypothesis that is coming from wiki.

You were the one quoting Wikipedia in support of your argument. I simply showed that the entry you cited didn't support you.

So you're both a moron and a hypocrite.

The difference between me and you is that i cited wiki saying very clearly that i show HYPOTESIS.
You on the contrary show wiki as FACTS.
If you are so blind not to see the huge difference then is time to make a booking for a nursing home.

Quote:Meat is not the only cause of heart attack and strokes but it is the main cause.
As you say there are other factors as well.
Take the south pacific islanders.
They go mad for corn beef in the tin which is something that has been introduced by the white man.
Not many of them smoke or are under stress but most of them got diabetes and many are victims of heart attack and strokes.
They have always eaten a diet high on starches and they still do but why is that they got sick only when they started eating meat in the tin?

Without more info on this particular case I can't tell you. However as to meat and heart attacks the data is in and I'm sorry but no. Meat is not the cause. This hypothesis, called the lipid hypothesis, has been debunked. There are many countries that eat a lot of meat and have very little heart disease and some that eat very little meat and have lots of heart disease. The data just doesn't support the meat=heart disease hypothesis. In fact an ongoing study by (I think) Harvard shows that all things considered those people who eat more meat and saturated fat and less starches have less heart problems than those who eat less meat and have similar lifestyles otherwise.

I'll look into your claim though. Give me a few.

Edit: not many smoke, eh? The CDC says otherwise. And I quote: "The highest rates of cigarette smoking are among Southeast Asians males and they start smoking early in life putting them at greater risk for heart disease."