(July 27, 2014 at 4:01 am)Purplundy Wrote: If the Gospel writers were liars, wouldn't they have made their stories agree to the letter?

If they had decided to conspire to perpetrate a fraud, sure. The stories might be nearly perfect in the details and would agree quite nicely, even allowing for the primitive (and likely expensive) methods of recording them for an audience that was mostly illiterate and thus unlikely to have an opportunity to pore over the works and spotting inconsistencies.

If we're talking about writers with their own agendas and divergent aims writing for relatively small groups of semi-literate people, whose works were then selected for inclusion into a larger work a few centuries later, you might just get a group of accounts that are similar enough to pass as "authentic."

(July 27, 2014 at 7:36 am)Purplundy Wrote: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person." Matthew 5:38-39

That command isn't mandated in the OT, it's likely that the Pharisees (those guys that Jesus hated) came up with it.

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(July 27, 2014 at 9:57 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(July 27, 2014 at 2:11 am)Aractus Wrote: "My" fairy tales?

OK, your favorite fairy tales. Better?

And with that you've proven I don't need to read the rest of your reply.

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(July 28, 2014 at 12:05 am)Drich Wrote: Not just keep the old law but He commanded us to have it apply to our hearts as well. It was not enough to just not murder, but now Christ equates the hate that spawns murder, to murder itself. (And so on)

Ok, so how is it any different to the changes that the Pharisees made?

(July 28, 2014 at 8:13 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: So clearly, if there was any collaboration in early Christianity, it failed. No skeptic that I'm aware of is making any claim that there was such an attempt.

I wasn't out to prove that the Gospels were true. I was pointing out that the evidence suggests that some real-world event prompted the inception of Christianity. That some semblance of Jesus Christ walked the earth and those who listened to him walked away with their own interpretation of his work.
Whichever interpretation of Jesus makes the cut is up in the air as far as I'm concerned.

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(July 28, 2014 at 10:21 am)Aractus Wrote:

(July 27, 2014 at 7:36 am)Purplundy Wrote: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person." Matthew 5:38-39

That command isn't mandated in the OT, it's likely that the Pharisees (those guys that Jesus hated) came up with it.

"If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." Exodus 21:22-25

Quote:I was pointing out that the evidence suggests that some real-world event prompted the inception of Christianity. That some semblance of Jesus Christ walked the earth and those who listened to him walked away with their own interpretation of his work.

And is there a historical kernel behind any other religion? Osiris? Odin? Ishtar? Shiva?

Or are you merely trying out a little more xtian special pleading.

(July 28, 2014 at 1:16 pm)Purplundy Wrote: I wasn't out to prove that the Gospels were true. I was pointing out that the evidence suggests that some real-world event prompted the inception of Christianity. That some semblance of Jesus Christ walked the earth and those who listened to him walked away with their own interpretation of his work.
Whichever interpretation of Jesus makes the cut is up in the air as far as I'm concerned.

That's fine. I'm a Jesus-Mooter. We can muse about a "historical core" all you like but we'll never know what that was.

When it comes to finding historical information about The Historical Jesus, the pickings are slim. The best we've got is an oblique reference in the 2nd century Annals of Tacitus to a "Christos" (anointed one) who "was crucified by one of our Procurators, Pilate."

Yeshua was a common name. End-times-messiah-wannabes existed in abundance in 1st century Judea. Pilate killed a great many Jews.

The supernatural aspects of the Gospels can be ignored, as surely if they really happened they would've gotten attention. The successful ministry of Jesus that spread like wildfire seems unlikely for the same reasons. What he taught is anyone's guess since we have no writings of Jesus and the wild variance of Christianities indicates against Jesus being very clear about what his ministry's message was.

So what's left? How can we possibly uncover the facts from under the mountain of myth and folklore?

Bart Ehrman can get back to me from his Ivory Tower when he finds something of substance regarding The Historical Jesus.

There have been several grasps at what the Christian Jesus could have been, or what he might have been like.
But I can't argue for Christianity any further.

(July 28, 2014 at 7:59 pm)Purplundy Wrote: There have been several grasps at what the Christian Jesus could have been, or what he might have been like.
But I can't argue for Christianity any further.

One more if you count Dan Brown.

His ideas have as much merit as any other.

(July 28, 2014 at 1:16 pm)Purplundy Wrote: "If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." Exodus 21:22-25

That's an if-then.It applies only to assulted ladies that are with child.

(July 28, 2014 at 10:21 am)Aractus Wrote: And with that you've proven I don't need to read the rest of your reply.

Aw, did I hurt your fee-fees?



When you storm away from a debate over such a trivial matter, you've forfeit and everyone knows it.

Quote:What does Jesus teach?

I rather liked the part about whipping the money-lenders with a scourge.