(July 29, 2014 at 10:51 pm)Purplundy Wrote:

(July 29, 2014 at 7:04 pm)StealthySkeptic Wrote: What a convenient escape hatch. He's only infallible on the subjects that OTHER people say he's infallible on.

What?
The Catholic Church did not issue a proclamation that Pope Francis is fallible on social issues last year. That's been the rule for over a century.
And there isn't a list of "subjects" that the Pope is infallible on. The Pope can claim to be infallible on anything, but it has to be a statement, first of all, and there is a system that he has to go through.
And now you're saying that he has to defend his infallibility. If he wanted to defend it, he wouldn't use it. There isn't an escape hatch. If your argument even made sense, the Catholic Church would have backpedaled for miles by now.

I know that the Pope was proclaimed to only be infallible on church doctrine by the First Vatican Council in 1870. But the thing is that the pope says when he is infallible and only on a limited amount of subjects set by the hierarchy, so we just have to take his word for it like he's turning on a holy cheat code or something.

As for the pedophilia situation, you would think the Holy Spirit would give him the infallibly perfect solution that isn't controlled by the cardinals who seem to edit his statements quite frequently, but it only seems to SOMETIMES infallibly guide him where nobody can verify what he's saying is correct, and when he isn't correct such as the pedophilia situation, he isn't caught in an "infallible" lie. How convenient!

(July 30, 2014 at 12:58 pm)StealthySkeptic Wrote: But the thing is that the pope says when he is infallible and only on a limited amount of subjects set by the hierarchy, so we just have to take his word for it like he's turning on a holy cheat code or something.

You don't have to take his word for anything. The Pope makes infallible statements regarding the doctrine of a church you are not a member of.

Quote:As for the pedophilia situation, you would think the Holy Spirit would give him the infallibly perfect solution that isn't controlled by the cardinals who seem to edit his statements quite frequently,

Unless you're advocating for divine mind control, the problem isn't that the Pope doesn't know what to do. It's that he doesn't want to do it. Like any other human being, Pope Francis makes bad decisions. We're back to square one.

Quote:but it only seems to SOMETIMES infallibly guide him where nobody can verify what he's saying is correct, and when he isn't correct such as the pedophilia situation, he isn't caught in an "infallible" lie. How convenient!

Yes, the Catholic Church made its doctrine convenient for itself. That doesn't disprove papal infallibity, not that I'm arguing for it.

(July 30, 2014 at 1:12 pm)Purplundy Wrote:

(July 30, 2014 at 12:58 pm)StealthySkeptic Wrote: But the thing is that the pope says when he is infallible and only on a limited amount of subjects set by the hierarchy, so we just have to take his word for it like he's turning on a holy cheat code or something.

You don't have to take his word for anything. The Pope makes infallible statements regarding the doctrine of a church you are not a member of.

Quote:As for the pedophilia situation, you would think the Holy Spirit would give him the infallibly perfect solution that isn't controlled by the cardinals who seem to edit his statements quite frequently,

Unless you're advocating for divine mind control, the problem isn't that the Pope doesn't know what to do. It's that he doesn't want to do it. Like any other human being, Pope Francis makes bad decisions. We're back to square one.

Quote:but it only seems to SOMETIMES infallibly guide him where nobody can verify what he's saying is correct, and when he isn't correct such as the pedophilia situation, he isn't caught in an "infallible" lie. How convenient!

Yes, the Catholic Church made its doctrine convenient for itself. That doesn't disprove papal infallibity, not that I'm arguing for it.

What you said clearly means in my opinion that the doctrine of papal infallibility is manufactured to keep the good Catholic folks in line.



Which is one of the many, many reasons I left after I recognized how ridiculous that was- when I was TEN. And I would think that an issue that is so important that it's caused thousands to leave and millions to doubt would at least warrant a little consideration from God, if that is the Roman Catholic Church really IS Christ's church on earth.

I don't think this is about infallibility—it seems you've delved into the problem of evil.

(July 24, 2014 at 6:55 pm)StealthySkeptic Wrote: I was walking home today along Massachusetts Avenue NW in Washington D.C., when I noticed an elderly gentleman standing in front of the Vatican embassy with these signs:





So I approached him and took these pictures. He told me his name is John Wojnowski, a Polish Catholic who in 1958 was molested at the age of 15 by a Catholic priest. Sadly, we all know that this is an all too common occurrence but it was so traumatic that John repressed this memory until a Texas boy was abused in 1997.

John is now 70 years old and has walked an hour each way every single day from 4 PM until dark for the past fifteen years to stand in front of the Vatican embassy, only to be insulted, spat at, and cursed to hell by ignorant sheeple who are so cowed by the Catholic oligarchy that they will happily sit on the sidelines and support its proclamation to be the salvation of the world while at the same time doing these monstrous things and getting away with it. As long as the world buys Pope Francis's PR and misdirection, however, nobody's going to give a shit- until the next scandal. Whenever Frankie boy dies, he will be replaced by another puppet who presides over a golden palace while thousands of victims are treated as opportunities to save face in pointless meetings and children dig through Rome's dumpsters for food.

John is only one elderly protestor, but in one afternoon, he shook me out of my malaise when it comes to the situation and now I'm hopping mad. After his story, I'm convinced the Vatican is nothing but a stain, and I will continue to keep John in my thoughts until the Vatican does something to change or its grip on a billion Catholics ends. Hope this story inspires you as it did me.

Fuck this guy is one tenacious son of bitch. I like him, can we get more people like him?

Yes, yes, we can. All we need to do is cry, "I'm mad as hell and I won't take it any more!" And hopefully protest against this in whatever way we can until the Vatican either imposes justice upon itself or is brought to it.