(September 4, 2014 at 3:37 pm)C4RM5 Wrote:

(September 4, 2014 at 3:35 pm)Tobie Wrote: Blood sacrifice is a remnant from before the ret-con of all the other gods of the Canaanite pantheon. There is a tradition of it in the bible, but it does not explain why, according to your mythology, an all-powerful being would resort to sending down his son to act as a scapegoat for the sins of humanity, rather than just erasing them in the first place.

God already erased humanity and all life except those on the ark. It is an act of mercy and love that God sent his son to die for are sins not a scrapegoat.

Surely it's a failure on your god's part that he thought he needed to do those actions?

(September 4, 2014 at 1:20 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: If you knew how the genealogy works, you would know that it traces the bloodline of the firstborn male, Abel is not in it because he died having no children, there is no reason Cain should not be included, unless he was not Adams son.

Also, about the part where Eve says (of Cain) "I have gotten a man from the Lord"

All life, good or bad, comes from God, so of course she "got a man form the Lord"

Anyways all you have to do is find where the bible acknowledges Cain as Adams son.

I already quoted it, it's in Genesis 4:1-2 "Adam made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the Lord I have brought forth a man.” Later she gave birth to his brother Abel."

Later it uses essentially the same language for Seth: "Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, 'God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.'” Genesis 4:25

Cain is Adam's son. The verses in 1 John are obviously metaphorical, not about actual parents:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." 1 John 3:9-12

The genealogies in Luke are irrelevant. So Joseph was supposedly descended from Seth, that doesn't make Cain and his line disappear or change Cain's father. All that is said is that the Hebrews descended from Seth and other peoples from Cain.

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(September 4, 2014 at 3:14 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: The whole idea behind this biblical story is to fortell Jesus' death on the cross. Hence the fact that only a blood sacrafice will save you from your sins. This is why Abel found God's favour and not Cain. Also Cain was punished for his sin through separation from God and other humans " You will be a restless wanderer on the earth" Genisis 4 12. This is a christian point of view.

Can't see how Cain was separated from other humans. He married and went on to have a passel of decendants and found a city. See Genesis 4:17-23 And yes that's AFTER killing Abel.

And no I don't see how how the Biblical story of Cain and Abel foretells anything about Jesus. Though we do hear early on that God likes blood.

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(September 4, 2014 at 3:27 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(September 4, 2014 at 3:20 pm)Tobie Wrote: Despite not mentioning the messiah anywhere in the passage.

@Huggy; if Cain is not Adam's son, then neither is Seth, since the same language is used to describe the conception of both of them.

It's very simple, if Cain was Adams son, he would be included in Adam's genealogy. Seth IS recorded in the genealogy.

Nope, Cain is not included because Adam very rightly disowns him. But he is Adam's son. Genesis says so.

(September 4, 2014 at 3:20 pm)C4RM5 Wrote:

(September 4, 2014 at 3:16 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You think that the authors of an OT story had some "jesus" in mind?

Yes, I do there are many acurrate foretellings of Jesus' life such asthe manner of his death. As it was fortold he would die between thevies, be born of a virgin, he would rise from the dead and he would be betrayed by friends. There are a lot more

Ok...so, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Typical of your ilk.

Lets see on the insane side we have:

1. Cain is the son of Satan or the serpent and thus is (a) bad; (b) rightfully rejected by god; and © understandably a murderer all dubiously supported by Genesis genealogy, Hebrews, I John's comment about those who love being the children of god and those that don't being the sons of Satan, and Luke's genealogy of Joseph.

2. Blood sacrifice is required because Eve had sex with the Serpent and Adam and therefore all sacrifices to god much be made in blood because semen is blood together with the idea that god sacrificed animals to make clothes for Adam and Eve supported by innuendo in Genesis.

3. Cain was spared so his decedents could found other races though those races apparently are slated to die in Noah's flood later.

On the saner side we have:

1. Cain didn't provide his very best and Abel did.

2. The lesson is we should be our brothers' keepers.

3. Envy is a bad thing.

4. It was a lesson that blood is the only sacrifice god accepts with no explanation for the blood lust provided.

5. God knew Cain was bad from the beginning because he's god.

(September 4, 2014 at 4:10 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

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(September 4, 2014 at 1:20 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: If you knew how the genealogy works, you would know that it traces the bloodline of the firstborn male, Abel is not in it because he died having no children, there is no reason Cain should not be included, unless he was not Adams son.

Also, about the part where Eve says (of Cain) "I have gotten a man from the Lord"

All life, good or bad, comes from God, so of course she "got a man form the Lord"

Anyways all you have to do is find where the bible acknowledges Cain as Adams son.

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I already quoted it, it's in Genesis 4:1-2 "Adam made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the Lord I have brought forth a man.” Later she gave birth to his brother Abel."

Later it uses essentially the same language for Seth: "Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, 'God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.'” Genesis 4:25

Cain is Adam's son. The verses in 1 John are obviously metaphorical, not about actual parents:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." 1 John 3:9-12

The genealogies in Luke are irrelevant. So Joseph was supposedly descended from Seth, that doesn't make Cain and his line disappear or change Cain's father. All that is said is that the Hebrews descended from Seth and other peoples from Cain.

The first genealogy I referenced was from the 5th chapter of Genesis.

The Bible clearly makes a distinction between the descendants of Abel and the descendants of Cain.

Genesis 6
6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Adam was a son of God, making his children also sons of God. The nature of Cain could not have come from Adam.

Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

The descendants of Adam were long lived and once the two bloodlines began to mix, it shortened their life expectancy.

Genesis 6
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Also, did not God say to eve that he would put enmity between her seed and the serpents seed? So the serpent clearly had a "seed". If you notice, knowledge came through the line of Cain, they were the inventors and scientists.

Genesis 4
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

(September 4, 2014 at 4:10 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(September 4, 2014 at 3:27 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: It's very simple, if Cain was Adams son, he would be included in Adam's genealogy. Seth IS recorded in the genealogy.

Nope, Cain is not included because Adam very rightly disowns him. But he is Adam's son. Genesis says so.

Please show where it says in the Bible that Adam disowns Cain as his son.

I always thought it was because Cain's line was a dead end. He isn't listed in the genealogy because his line dies out.

(September 4, 2014 at 3:20 pm)C4RM5 Wrote:

(September 4, 2014 at 3:16 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You think that the authors of an OT story had some "jesus" in mind?

Yes, I do there are many acurrate foretellings of Jesus' life such asthe manner of his death. As it was fortold he would die between thevies, be born of a virgin, he would rise from the dead and he would be betrayed by friends. There are a lot more

Not unlike many mythologies which preceded the myth of Jesus.

(September 4, 2014 at 3:27 pm)C4RM5 Wrote:

(September 4, 2014 at 3:20 pm)Tobie Wrote: Despite not mentioning the messiah anywhere in the passage.

@Huggy; if Cain is not Adam's son, then neither is Seth, since the same language is used to describe the conception of both of them.

It is a recurring theme throught the Bible that only blood shed can pay for sin and Jesus' death is the ultimate sacrafice the Bible is leading up to. Jesus' death paid for are sin and that is why christians do not sacrafice animals, we just look to the cross. "For God so loved the world he gave his one and only Son that who so ever believes in him shall not perish but have ever lasting life" John 3 16

Why do you worship a god who would prefer to murder his own son rather than simply forgive folk?

(September 4, 2014 at 7:48 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: The first genealogy I referenced was from the 5th chapter of Genesis.

The Bible clearly makes a distinction between the descendants of Abel and the descendants of Cain.

Read your own dang book. Abel doesn't have any decedents but Adam's son Seth does.

And yes the descendants of Cain and Seth are listed separately. Cain's are given in Chapter 4 just after Cain is banished and Seth's are given just after Seth's birth is recounted for a second time in Genesis 5:1-3. So? They would have different descendants since they are two separate people. And Genesis 4 still says that they are both sons of Adam and Eve.

(September 4, 2014 at 7:48 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Genesis 6
6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Adam was a son of God, making his children also sons of God. The nature of Cain could not have come from Adam.

You need to read that whole section. It was not Adam and his sons who are referred to as the sons of god, it's the Nephilim i.e. angels.

"When people began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that they were fair; and they took wives for themselves of all that they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My spirit shall not abide in mortals forever, for they are flesh; their days shall be one hundred twenty years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown."
Genesis 6:1-4

The sons of god referred to were divine beings who took up with human woman.

(September 4, 2014 at 7:48 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

The descendants of Adam were long lived and once the two bloodlines began to mix, it shortened their life expectancy.

You're nuts. Adam was the son of God in that god created him. There's nothing about that that negates the clear statement in Genesis 4 that Cain was the son of Adam. Nor is there any suggestion that the mixing of blood was the reason for the decrease in lifespan. God simply declared that he would reduce man's lifespan.

(September 4, 2014 at 7:48 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Also, did not God say to eve that he would put enmity between her seed and the serpents seed? So the serpent clearly had a "seed". If you notice, knowledge came through the line of Cain, they were the inventors and scientists.

What Genesis 3:15 actually says is:

"I will put enmity between you [the Serpent] and the woman [Eve],
and between your offspring and hers;
he will strike your head,
and you will strike his heel."

Notice the serpent's off-spring and Eve's are separate.

And Cain's descendents dwelt in tents, lived with herds, played the lyre and the pipe, and forged copper and iron. I don't see that they acquired knowledge generally. Genesis 4.

Quote:Please show where it says in the Bible that Adam disowns Cain as his son.

It's implied by Adam's acceptance of Cain's banishment. Clearly, that was the last he saw of Cain as Cain was banished.

(September 4, 2014 at 3:35 pm)C4RM5 Wrote:

(September 4, 2014 at 3:29 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You mean the favorites are acknowledged and the disavowed are shunned and forgotten? Huh, who'd have thunk it, right? Cain is one of those villains you root for isn;t he? Secretly maybe, the noir sort of release from watching Russel Crowe deliver some blows to a criminal. Guy commits a crime, talks back to the boss- goes on to be unimaginably successful.

I don't mean that, no one is God's favourite. He loves us equally and offers us all the chance of forgiveness and salvation.
For all of us who sin daily it is amasing God even gives the option not to go to Hell but recieve his forgiveness. That is love not favouritism.

No, love is not threatening your creations with eternal torture in the first place.

Here's a parable:

When my son was seven, I caught him writing the word "fuck" in chalk on the sidewalk in front of our apartment. This was obviously bad behavior. Now, I could have thrown him into the oven set at 475F for eternity -- or until my gas bill got too high -- but I instead chose to have him scrub the sidewalk, restricted him to his room for three hours, and made him apologize to our neighbors in the apartment complex.

What is the lesson you draw from this parable?

eta: Here's a clue: you can actually find the answer in the New Testament.