try insects too, lots of protein very little fat.

(November 2, 2014 at 1:13 pm)miniboes Wrote: That we can eat meat does not mean we need it or that it's actually healthy.

No, that's handled by the fact that we do require nutrients specific to it and going without those nutrients is predictably and demonstrably unhealthy. We can manufacture substitutes, of course (but this can be said of any food source). We'll still be using the same source, ultimately, we'll just add processing until it becomes comfortably distant in our own minds.

Quote:When we ate meat it was probably corpses left by more proficient predators that actually had claws or sharp teeth or high speed to kill things. Fossils of human teeth show we ate mostly plants anyway.

The "proficient predators" with claws and teeth are also just as often scavengers. We, ourselves -are- proficient predators, we simply don't require the claws and teeth to be so (though we have them nevertheless and they are dangerous for a variety of reasons most never consider...ever been bitten by a human being? Ever wondered about all the nasty shit that comes along with that bite?). We went a different route with it. We mostly ate (and still eat) whatever we could get ahold of whenever we could get ahold of it - that's omnivory. Plant's are immobile, you're going to find alot of them in the diet of a great many omnivores for that obvious reason if no other. One thing you'll rarely hear a midden heap described as is "discerning". We didn't "mostly eat plants" we "mostly couldn't get ahold of a whole lot else". It's an important nuance, I think. The meat we could (and can) get ahold of was very important to us, and it remains so. That we can get so much more of it, is, amusingly - due to our getting alot better at growing those plants we became so fond of. The meat industry itself is a byproduct. We still "mostly eat plants" in any case, and it's still for exactly the same reason. Nothing about this, particularly what we can our hands on, actually speaks to the point of contention.

(November 2, 2014 at 1:13 pm)miniboes Wrote: "We are omnivores" and "we evolved from hunter/gatherers" are not very useful claims in my opinion. That we can eat meat does not mean we need it or that it's actually healthy. When we ate meat it was probably corpses left by more proficient predators that actually had claws or sharp teeth or high speed to kill things. Fossils of human teeth show we ate mostly plants anyway.

That's just completely incorrect and you're either not aware of the science, the fossils and ancient remains left behind, and anatomy regarding this, or you're just misusing it intentionally. Humans have lived on this Earth for at least 200,000 years, and there has not been one single ancient tribe identified yet that did not consume meat.

And do we need meat for nutrients? YES. We need it for:

1. Vitamin B12 which we cannot get from any plant in its natural form. A number of vegans have found that they cannot absorb B12 orally from supplements and have to have injections.
2. Protein. Some long-term vegans have found that no matter how they altered their diets they couldn't gain any muscle. This may have to do with plant lectins inhibiting protein absorption from plants.
3. Cholesterol. On a normal healthy diet our body makes 85% of the cholesterol we need, and we get 15% from the diet. Plants do not have any cholesterol. Cholesterol deficiency can only be corrected by stimulating the body to produce more cholesterol and it's believed that this is done by eating more of a specific type of saturated fat. Plants are very low in saturated fats, it is near impossible to correct a cholesterol deficiency from plant-based foods alone. You can try drinking olive oil in large quantities, but just to get the amount of saturated fat you need, you have to get an extra 80% unsaturated fat that you may not need. Let me put this in perspective - most plants are 80% or so unsaturated fat, and only 20% saturated. Meats are up to 40% saturated fat and 60% unsaturated. Getting the balance right is the key to healthy cholesterol levels. Veganisim is double-edged with its problem here - 1. the dietary cholesterol is completely missing, 2. they eat lower levels of saturated fat and therefore their bodies don't want to produce as much cholesterol as they should. And I really, really doubt there were any ancient people living a vegan lifestyle drinking olive oil to maintain their cholesterol levels, this is one of the clearest examples of why we need meat.
4. Vitamin D. Vitamin D is not found in any plants - it is found in Mushroom, I believe, which is a vegan friendly food, or Eggs, or oily Fish. Like cholesterol our body does produce it, however we cannot produce enough on our own we rely on having some dietary vitamin D (I don't have the exact percentage on hand). Vitamin D deficiency is very common, even among non-vegetarians.
5. Calcium. Calcium deficiency which leads to osteoporosis is very common among vegans. It leads to osteoporosis, very common among long-term vegans.
6. Iron. Again iron deficiency is very common in veterinarians.

(November 2, 2014 at 11:00 pm)Aractus Wrote: there has not been one single ancient tribe identified yet that did not consume meat.

That's not the claim I made, I said primitive humans ate mostly plants. Whether or not you agree is irrelevant anyway, as the argument that to eat meat is natural is a huge appeal to nature fallacy.

Quote:1. Vitamin B12 which we cannot get from any plant in its natural form. A number of vegans have found that they cannot absorb B12 orally from supplements and have to have injections.

We do not absorb b12 from meat or dairy very well either, the original source we got it from was the water we drank; B12 is made by bacteria that were present in water, but now that we filter our water it isn't there anymore. B12 supplements are recommended for everyone as the evidence is not clear if their is actually enough b12 in meat.

Quote:2. Protein. Some long-term vegans have found that no matter how they altered their diets they couldn't gain any muscle. This may have to do with plant lectins inhibiting protein absorption from plants.

"Some vegans have" is really not an argument, it's just another generalization. Legumes are full of protein and you can get all the amino acids you need from one of the least healthy plant foods; white potato. Animal protein is not actually very healthy; it has been linked to cancer, kidney stones, diabetes, etc. in many studies whilst plant proteins actually reduce the risk of cancer.

Quote:3. Cholesterol.

Cholesterol deficiency? Seriously? You worry about that when 1/4th of the deaths in the western world is caused by a heart attack?

Quote:4. Vitamin D. Vitamin D is not found in any plants - it is found in Mushroom, I believe, which is a vegan friendly food, or Eggs, or oily Fish. Like cholesterol our body does produce it, however we cannot produce enough on our own we rely on having some dietary vitamin D (I don't have the exact percentage on hand). Vitamin D deficiency is very common, even among non-vegetarians.

Well, the original source of vitamin D is the sun, if you get outside enough you probably won't have a problem with vitamin D, otherwise a supplement is better for your health than eggs or fish.

Quote:5. Calcium. Calcium deficiency which leads to osteoporosis is very common among vegans. It leads to osteoporosis, very common among long-term vegans.

Calcium is abundant in leafy greens and motherless milks. I prefer those over milk, which actually makes you piss out calcium and is causes cancer, heart disease and some more of the worlds leading causes of death.

Quote:6. Iron. Again iron deficiency is very common in veterinarians.

Yeah, but too much iron and copper will cause Alzheimer's, which I'm not a fan of. The beautiful thing about the iron in plants (which there is more than enough of in leafy greens, whole grains and legumes) is that if you body has enough it can limit the absorption in contrast to the heme iron in meat.

You keep saying "some/many vegans have X", and whilst that might be true, you will find healthy and unhealthy people for every diet group. A vegan can eat Oreo all day long, theoretically. It's not like meat eaters have better health; vegans overall have much lower risk of cancer, cardiovascular disease, diabetes and Alzheimer's. There are also nutrients the standard meat-eater died fails to provide enough of; fiber, antioxidants and phytochemicals. Those three things are exclusively found in plants foods. Sure, you need to think more about what you eat as a vegan, but you can be as healthy, or even much healthier than most meat-eaters.

(November 2, 2014 at 10:09 pm)Aractus Wrote: Most people who live in a developed country are healthy. Most elderly people are healthy are free from debilitating disease. Only in the last 2-3 years of your life as an elderly person would you normally expect to have a serious debilitating condition.

You need to define healthy here. You could call my grandmother healthy as she is not quite dying, but all of her body hurts and she gets tired extremely quickly. To me, that is not healthy anymore. What I am now; able to move freely, no chronic pains, being able to think absolutely clearly, not having to take any medication, that is healthy to me. By the way, heart disease appears to start at the age of ten, and the only diet that has been able to reverse it is a vegan one. Do you have another diet that can reverse our #1 killer?

Keep in mind the reasons for going vegan are not always health; more compelling reasons are the environment and ethics. But that's another subject entirely.

(November 3, 2014 at 9:18 am)Riketto Wrote: You haven't considering what the modern medical knowledge can do to prevent early death.

Haven't I? Show me a single scientific piece of evidence that suggests long-term veganisim will prevent early death?

Quote:The same things happen these days in the hospitals.
Being healthy means not getting diseases in the first place not getting them and then having to ask the doctors to sort it out so to prevent early death.

"Not getting disease in the first place"?

Yes of course we take preventative measures - STI control through condom use, vaccination, etc. Where's your evidence that a vegan diet specifically will be more preventative than any other well balanced healthy diet?

Quote:By not eating meat you are healthier ...

Do you have ANY evidence, besides "the china study" to support this claim?

Quote:If the so called experts would have a clue about what is good and bad for us the hospitals would be almost empty.

Really? Who do you think "the experts" are then?