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Dr. Doug Graham (80-10-10 raw vegan)
#11
RE: Dr. Doug Graham (80-10-10 raw vegan)
try insects too, lots of protein very little fat.
Quote:To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
- Lau Tzu

Join me on atheistforums Slack Cool Shades (pester tibs via pm if you need invite) Tongue

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#12
RE: Dr. Doug Graham (80-10-10 raw vegan)
(November 2, 2014 at 10:53 am)Riketto Wrote: You always get nutcases that go to the extreme.
Most of the vegan are very healthy.
So what that most vegans are healthy? What does that prove? Most people who live in a developed country are healthy. Most elderly people are healthy are free from debilitating disease. Only in the last 2-3 years of your life as an elderly person would you normally expect to have a serious debilitating condition.
Quote:A Peta demonstration in London show that the extreme is not the norm.
http://www.demotix.com/photo/6155282/pet...day-london
Quoting peta when you claim that "extreme is not the norm"? I think it is extreme to be more concerned about animal welfare than about human health, and I think it's extreme to ignore the peer-review evidence from experts, the health advice of the overwhelming majority of qualified dieticians and physicians, and believe that veganisim is "healthier" than a diet that includes all the five food groups.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK

The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK


"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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#13
RE: Dr. Doug Graham (80-10-10 raw vegan)
(November 2, 2014 at 1:13 pm)miniboes Wrote: That we can eat meat does not mean we need it or that it's actually healthy.
No, that's handled by the fact that we do require nutrients specific to it and going without those nutrients is predictably and demonstrably unhealthy. We can manufacture substitutes, of course (but this can be said of any food source). We'll still be using the same source, ultimately, we'll just add processing until it becomes comfortably distant in our own minds.

Quote:When we ate meat it was probably corpses left by more proficient predators that actually had claws or sharp teeth or high speed to kill things. Fossils of human teeth show we ate mostly plants anyway.
The "proficient predators" with claws and teeth are also just as often scavengers. We, ourselves -are- proficient predators, we simply don't require the claws and teeth to be so (though we have them nevertheless and they are dangerous for a variety of reasons most never consider...ever been bitten by a human being? Ever wondered about all the nasty shit that comes along with that bite?). We went a different route with it. We mostly ate (and still eat) whatever we could get ahold of whenever we could get ahold of it - that's omnivory. Plant's are immobile, you're going to find alot of them in the diet of a great many omnivores for that obvious reason if no other. One thing you'll rarely hear a midden heap described as is "discerning". We didn't "mostly eat plants" we "mostly couldn't get ahold of a whole lot else". It's an important nuance, I think. The meat we could (and can) get ahold of was very important to us, and it remains so. That we can get so much more of it, is, amusingly - due to our getting alot better at growing those plants we became so fond of. The meat industry itself is a byproduct. We still "mostly eat plants" in any case, and it's still for exactly the same reason. Nothing about this, particularly what we can our hands on, actually speaks to the point of contention.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#14
RE: Dr. Doug Graham (80-10-10 raw vegan)
(November 2, 2014 at 1:13 pm)miniboes Wrote: "We are omnivores" and "we evolved from hunter/gatherers" are not very useful claims in my opinion. That we can eat meat does not mean we need it or that it's actually healthy. When we ate meat it was probably corpses left by more proficient predators that actually had claws or sharp teeth or high speed to kill things. Fossils of human teeth show we ate mostly plants anyway.
That's just completely incorrect and you're either not aware of the science, the fossils and ancient remains left behind, and anatomy regarding this, or you're just misusing it intentionally. Humans have lived on this Earth for at least 200,000 years, and there has not been one single ancient tribe identified yet that did not consume meat.

And do we need meat for nutrients? YES. We need it for:

1. Vitamin B12 which we cannot get from any plant in its natural form. A number of vegans have found that they cannot absorb B12 orally from supplements and have to have injections.
2. Protein. Some long-term vegans have found that no matter how they altered their diets they couldn't gain any muscle. This may have to do with plant lectins inhibiting protein absorption from plants.
3. Cholesterol. On a normal healthy diet our body makes 85% of the cholesterol we need, and we get 15% from the diet. Plants do not have any cholesterol. Cholesterol deficiency can only be corrected by stimulating the body to produce more cholesterol and it's believed that this is done by eating more of a specific type of saturated fat. Plants are very low in saturated fats, it is near impossible to correct a cholesterol deficiency from plant-based foods alone. You can try drinking olive oil in large quantities, but just to get the amount of saturated fat you need, you have to get an extra 80% unsaturated fat that you may not need. Let me put this in perspective - most plants are 80% or so unsaturated fat, and only 20% saturated. Meats are up to 40% saturated fat and 60% unsaturated. Getting the balance right is the key to healthy cholesterol levels. Veganisim is double-edged with its problem here - 1. the dietary cholesterol is completely missing, 2. they eat lower levels of saturated fat and therefore their bodies don't want to produce as much cholesterol as they should. And I really, really doubt there were any ancient people living a vegan lifestyle drinking olive oil to maintain their cholesterol levels, this is one of the clearest examples of why we need meat.
4. Vitamin D. Vitamin D is not found in any plants - it is found in Mushroom, I believe, which is a vegan friendly food, or Eggs, or oily Fish. Like cholesterol our body does produce it, however we cannot produce enough on our own we rely on having some dietary vitamin D (I don't have the exact percentage on hand). Vitamin D deficiency is very common, even among non-vegetarians.
5. Calcium. Calcium deficiency which leads to osteoporosis is very common among vegans. It leads to osteoporosis, very common among long-term vegans.
6. Iron. Again iron deficiency is very common in veterinarians.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK

The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK


"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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#15
RE: Dr. Doug Graham (80-10-10 raw vegan)
(November 2, 2014 at 11:00 pm)Aractus Wrote: there has not been one single ancient tribe identified yet that did not consume meat.

That's not the claim I made, I said primitive humans ate mostly plants. Whether or not you agree is irrelevant anyway, as the argument that to eat meat is natural is a huge appeal to nature fallacy.

Quote:1. Vitamin B12 which we cannot get from any plant in its natural form. A number of vegans have found that they cannot absorb B12 orally from supplements and have to have injections.

We do not absorb b12 from meat or dairy very well either, the original source we got it from was the water we drank; B12 is made by bacteria that were present in water, but now that we filter our water it isn't there anymore. B12 supplements are recommended for everyone as the evidence is not clear if their is actually enough b12 in meat.

Quote:2. Protein. Some long-term vegans have found that no matter how they altered their diets they couldn't gain any muscle. This may have to do with plant lectins inhibiting protein absorption from plants.

"Some vegans have" is really not an argument, it's just another generalization. Legumes are full of protein and you can get all the amino acids you need from one of the least healthy plant foods; white potato. Animal protein is not actually very healthy; it has been linked to cancer, kidney stones, diabetes, etc. in many studies whilst plant proteins actually reduce the risk of cancer.

Quote:3. Cholesterol.

Cholesterol deficiency? Seriously? You worry about that when 1/4th of the deaths in the western world is caused by a heart attack?

Quote:4. Vitamin D. Vitamin D is not found in any plants - it is found in Mushroom, I believe, which is a vegan friendly food, or Eggs, or oily Fish. Like cholesterol our body does produce it, however we cannot produce enough on our own we rely on having some dietary vitamin D (I don't have the exact percentage on hand). Vitamin D deficiency is very common, even among non-vegetarians.

Well, the original source of vitamin D is the sun, if you get outside enough you probably won't have a problem with vitamin D, otherwise a supplement is better for your health than eggs or fish.

Quote:5. Calcium. Calcium deficiency which leads to osteoporosis is very common among vegans. It leads to osteoporosis, very common among long-term vegans.

Calcium is abundant in leafy greens and motherless milks. I prefer those over milk, which actually makes you piss out calcium and is causes cancer, heart disease and some more of the worlds leading causes of death.

Quote:6. Iron. Again iron deficiency is very common in veterinarians.

Yeah, but too much iron and copper will cause Alzheimer's, which I'm not a fan of. The beautiful thing about the iron in plants (which there is more than enough of in leafy greens, whole grains and legumes) is that if you body has enough it can limit the absorption in contrast to the heme iron in meat.

You keep saying "some/many vegans have X", and whilst that might be true, you will find healthy and unhealthy people for every diet group. A vegan can eat Oreo all day long, theoretically. It's not like meat eaters have better health; vegans overall have much lower risk of cancer, cardiovascular disease, diabetes and Alzheimer's. There are also nutrients the standard meat-eater died fails to provide enough of; fiber, antioxidants and phytochemicals. Those three things are exclusively found in plants foods. Sure, you need to think more about what you eat as a vegan, but you can be as healthy, or even much healthier than most meat-eaters.

(November 2, 2014 at 10:09 pm)Aractus Wrote: Most people who live in a developed country are healthy. Most elderly people are healthy are free from debilitating disease. Only in the last 2-3 years of your life as an elderly person would you normally expect to have a serious debilitating condition.

You need to define healthy here. You could call my grandmother healthy as she is not quite dying, but all of her body hurts and she gets tired extremely quickly. To me, that is not healthy anymore. What I am now; able to move freely, no chronic pains, being able to think absolutely clearly, not having to take any medication, that is healthy to me. By the way, heart disease appears to start at the age of ten, and the only diet that has been able to reverse it is a vegan one. Do you have another diet that can reverse our #1 killer?

Keep in mind the reasons for going vegan are not always health; more compelling reasons are the environment and ethics. But that's another subject entirely.
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#16
RE: Dr. Doug Graham (80-10-10 raw vegan)
(November 3, 2014 at 6:24 am)miniboes Wrote: That's not the claim I made, I said primitive humans ate mostly plants. Whether or not you agree is irrelevant anyway, as the argument that to eat meat is natural is a huge appeal to nature fallacy.
And they also didn't have agriculture.

The argument you just made means nothing as to whether someone should eat no meat.

Let's say you proved to me beyond any doubt whatsoever that I would be healthier if I breathed 20% less oxygen. If you then tried to tell me that if I breathed no oxygen at all I'd be much healthier still I would be sceptical. To say they are "less meat" than we do today is perhaps true, but also they ate the organ meats which had the highest concentration of vitamins and minerals.
Quote:We do not absorb b12 from meat or dairy very well either,
Yes we do, we in fact absorb ALL of our dietary B12 from meat, fish and animal products (eggs and dairy).
Quote:the original source we got it from was the water we drank; B12 is made by bacteria that were present in water, but now that we filter our water it isn't there anymore.
Show me the peer review paper you read?

Or is that just some fringe theory?
Quote:B12 supplements are recommended for everyone as the evidence is not clear if their is actually enough b12 in meat.
What evidence?
Quote:"Some vegans have" is really not an argument, it's just another generalization.
Click here for a very well documented example on youtube.
Quote:Legumes are full of protein and you can get all the amino acids you need from one of the least healthy plant foods; white potato. Animal protein is not actually very healthy;
What evidence?
Quote:it has been linked to cancer, kidney stones, diabetes, etc.
What evidence?
Quote:in many studies whilst plant proteins actually reduce the risk of cancer.
What evidence?
Quote:Cholesterol deficiency? Seriously? You worry about that when 1/4th of the deaths in the western world is caused by a heart attack?
Yes I do worry about it because we are supposed to get 15% of our cholesterol from the diet. And plants have no cholesterol.

As to your comment about heart attacks, you clearly have no idea about the consequences of cholesterol deficiency. We have record numbers of mental illness do we not?
Quote:Well, the original source of vitamin D is the sun, if you get outside enough you probably won't have a problem with vitamin D, otherwise a supplement is better for your health than eggs or fish.
Incorrect. UV rays stimulate the body to produce vitamin D, it does not exist "in the sun". UV radiation also causes skin cancer. There is no way to get enough vitamin D just from internal synthesis stimulated by sun exposure, especially if you have darker skin.
Quote:Calcium is abundant in leafy greens and motherless milks. I prefer those over milk, which actually makes you piss out calcium and is causes cancer, heart disease and some more of the worlds leading causes of death.
Evidence?
Quote:Yeah, but too much iron and copper will cause Alzheimer's, which I'm not a fan of.
This time I'm jus calling flat-out bullshit on you. Nobody knows what causes alzheimers.
Quote:You need to define healthy here. You could call my grandmother healthy as she is not quite dying, but all of her body hurts and she gets tired extremely quickly.
I can only tell you the statistics for Australia. For people over 70, the majority of them are free of debilitating disease and able to live independently. Only a minority (overall) require medical care, however that medical care is very expensive because the elderly do not recover easily from injury or disease. On average if a person makes it to old age (70+) they can expect to have some medical complications for 5-6 years of their life and more serious ones for the last 2-3. Overall though, most people are healthy - which was my original point, if you remember. And that even includes people over 70.
Quote:By the way, heart disease appears to start at the age of ten, and the only diet that has been able to reverse it is a vegan one.
Evidence?
Quote:Do you have another diet that can reverse our #1 killer?
High blood cholesterol is lowered by lowering saturated fat in the diet; it has nothing to do with overall fat consumption or overall cholesterol consumption.
Quote:Keep in mind the reasons for going vegan are not always health; more compelling reasons are the environment and ethics. But that's another subject entirely.
The environment? So all the land we use rearing animals, most of which is of no use for agriculture, shouldn't be used to grow livestock?
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK

The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK


"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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#17
RE: Dr. Doug Graham (80-10-10 raw vegan)
(November 2, 2014 at 10:09 pm)Aractus Wrote: [quote='Riketto' pid='787950' dateline='1414940031']
You always get nutcases that go to the extreme.
Most of the vegan are very healthy.


Quote:So what that most vegans are healthy? What does that prove? Most people who live in a developed country are healthy. Most elderly people are healthy are free from debilitating disease. Only in the last 2-3 years of your life as an elderly person would you normally expect to have a serious debilitating condition.


You haven't considering what the modern medical knowledge can do to prevent early death.
It remind me when in the 70's hippies instead of getting rid of old jeans they used to patch them up.
The same things happen these days in the hospitals.
Being healthy means not getting diseases in the first place not getting them and then having to ask the doctors to sort it out so to prevent early death.


Quote:A Peta demonstration in London show that the extreme is not the norm.
http://www.demotix.com/photo/6155282/pet...day-london
Quote:Quoting peta when you claim that "extreme is not the norm"? I think it is extreme to be more concerned about animal welfare than about human health.........


In this case when you are concern about animal welfare you strike two winner with one shot.
By not eating meat you are healthier and your consciousness expand easier.


Quote:..................and I think it's extreme to ignore the peer-review evidence from experts, the health advice of the overwhelming majority of qualified dieticians and physicians, and believe that veganisim is "healthier" than a diet that includes all the five food groups.


If the so called experts would have a clue about what is good and bad for us the hospitals would be almost empty. Cool Shades
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#18
RE: Dr. Doug Graham (80-10-10 raw vegan)
I don't feel like citing everything again, but I'll provide the sources you requested:
Iron & Alzheimer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20150596
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19968254
http://wnit.org/braingames/pdf/risk.pdf (up to half of Alzheimer's cases seems to be preventable with diet and lifestyle changes)

B12:
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/38/3/436.long
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/48/3/852.full.pdf
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/71/2/514.full (1 in 6 meat eaters is b12 deficient)

On the from the water thing; it's a theory and I'm not sure where I got it from, I should have been more clear on that. What we do know is that it comes from bacteria originally and there are many ways that bacteria get into our body that are absent in modern society where we kill/remove all bacteria from our food as much as we can. The more important thing is that meat comes with a lot of baggage, like the saturated fat you mentioned, cholesterol and animal protein.

Protein and many of the diseases I mentioned:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsou...t/protein/ (a good summary of why animal protein is bad)
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/59/5/1203S.full.pdf (plant protein sources)


Some stuff about milk and bone health:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8610662

Heart disease & cholesterol:
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/17...l.pdf+html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21029840
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9036757

By the way, I'd like a source on the we need 15% of cholesterol from diet thing. And do you really think the numbers of mental illness are caused by cholesterol deficiency? The far, far majority of people eats meat, dairy and eggs constantly, so I don't think that's the problem we're facing right now.

Vegan sources of calcium:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/...002412.htm

I admit there is a lot less calcium in naturally occurring plant foods than in milk, but the calcium in plant foods does come with a lot less baggage.

Quote:The environment? So all the land we use rearing animals, most of which is of no use for agriculture, shouldn't be used to grow livestock?

Well, if you're not going to rear animals there's gonna be more demand for plant foods, although admittedly plant foods need way less space than livestock. The remaining room could be used for forests, those are nice and excellent for the environment. By the way, don't delude yourself; 99% of the animals raised for slaughter live on factory farms.

The reason I think the meat and dairy industries are the biggest environmental problem right now:
http://www.theverge.com/2013/8/13/460552...can-fix-it

Livestock industry is resonsible for 50% of human -caused greenhouse gasses
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#19
RE: Dr. Doug Graham (80-10-10 raw vegan)
(November 3, 2014 at 9:18 am)Riketto Wrote: You haven't considering what the modern medical knowledge can do to prevent early death.
Haven't I? Show me a single scientific piece of evidence that suggests long-term veganisim will prevent early death?
Quote:The same things happen these days in the hospitals.
Being healthy means not getting diseases in the first place not getting them and then having to ask the doctors to sort it out so to prevent early death.
"Not getting disease in the first place"?

Yes of course we take preventative measures - STI control through condom use, vaccination, etc. Where's your evidence that a vegan diet specifically will be more preventative than any other well balanced healthy diet?
Quote:By not eating meat you are healthier ...
Do you have ANY evidence, besides "the china study" to support this claim?
Quote:If the so called experts would have a clue about what is good and bad for us the hospitals would be almost empty. Cool Shades
Really? Who do you think "the experts" are then?
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK

The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK


"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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#20
RE: Dr. Doug Graham (80-10-10 raw vegan)
(November 3, 2014 at 8:38 am)Aractus Wrote: And they also didn't have agriculture.


Have you ever heard about wild rice, and so many other wild cereals?
Fruit and nuts trees were there as well so if you really wish to live without meat you could very well agriculture or not.


Quote:we in fact absorb ALL of our dietary B12 from meat, fish and animal products (eggs and dairy


If we weigh the amount of b12 that we need in our lifetime it would have the same weight as 3 or 4 rice grains.
We can get this amount in the occasional unwashed food that we eat here and there but to be 100% safe many people opt for b12 supplement from non-meat sources.


Quote:Nobody knows what causes alzheimers.


When the arteries are clogged up with saturated fats and cholesterol from mainly meat and eggs the blood can not get to the brains easily and this is one factor Alzheimer, dementia and Parkinson diseases but other factors are also to take in due consideration like the fluoridation in the water.
http://www.fluoridegate.org/the-film/



Quote:The environment? So all the land we use rearing animals, most of which is of no use for agriculture, shouldn't be used to grow livestock?


You are aussie and you don't know how everything started?
Wonder, wonder mate.Confusedhock:
Long long time ago Australia was covered in dense forests.
How do we know?
We know because even in the arid land and desert they found petrified trees and we know because in these arid lands there are caves where the aborigines panted figures of animals that could only live where a thick vegetation exist.
It is well known that aborigines in order to attract animals for an easy kill they burned the forests so the fresh grass could grow and in this way attract animals.
The white man completed the job by cutting down what was left of these forests both for wood and for having land to graze animals so it is true that at this stage the land has been ruined and it is only good to grow livestock but it is also true that the greed for meat cause all this disaster. Wink Shades

(November 3, 2014 at 9:54 am)Aractus Wrote:
(November 3, 2014 at 9:18 am)Riketto Wrote: You haven't considering what the modern medical knowledge can do to prevent early death.
Haven't I? Show me a single scientific piece of evidence that suggests long-term veganisim will prevent early death?


Before you come down with your ideas you should consider that veganism is just taking roots these days.
In the past there were only few vegans so to give evidence that veganism is the best of the best it is quite difficult.
Most of the people who are vegan today until short time ago they were sort of omnivore.
Only if you take a group of vegan that have been vegan all their life and their parents were vegan as well then we could have a clear evidence.
As it is today evidence can not be a total and clear evidence.


Quote:Where's your evidence that a vegan diet specifically will be more preventative than any other well balanced healthy diet?


You presume that your balance diet is an healthy diet.
You should explaining me why is that among those with cardiovascular diseases and diabetes there are not vegetarians or vegan? Thinking


Quote:By not eating meat you are healthier ...
Quote:Do you have ANY evidence, besides "the china study" to support this claim?


I haven't got any china study.
My knowledge come from the patients that i look after.
The rare vegetarian that i see is usually someone who had some sort of accident.


Quote:If the so called experts would have a clue about what is good and bad for us the hospitals would be almost empty. Cool Shades


Quote:Really? Who do you think "the experts" are then?


The experts are those whose suggestions give top results.
Again how can you call expert people whose suggestions lead to sickness? Thinking
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