(December 3, 2014 at 1:29 pm)Surgenator Wrote: Experiments and reasoning that are explained in the link I provided earlier on why NDE's are not evidence for an afterlife. The link that you refused to read.

You surely in your life must have gone through a border so you must know that when you try to enter a different country you must present your passport to the border post or to the custom at the airport.
The same thing happen when the physical science try to enter a different arena of consciousness.
Physical science need more than a passport to enter a place where there is no physicality.
So far this physical science has not really work out how to get the right passport to enter this arena.
But nothing is really impossible.
One day when physical science will work on subconscious as well a lot of progress will be made.
At the moment it is quite early to pretend that this physical science may be able to penetrate the higher layers of consciousness and to understand the science behind the NDEs.

Quote:How popular or how seriously a majority of people take someone has nothing to do with the validity of the religion.

Correct.
That is why i early said that Buddhism is royal cream.

Quote:Again, appeal to popularity falacy. It doesn't matter how many christians take their religion seriously for it to still be considered a religion. Why should it matter for the buddhist?

Buddhism can be a lot more than a religion provided that those who follow Buddha teaching stick to spirituality and not to external worship.
Only a tiny number of people really follow Buddha teaching, all the rest follow external worship which is worth next to nothing.

Quote:You can have that argument with a buddhist if you want. I don't believe in either.

I thought it was you that proposed that sentence.
There got to be more than one surgen around.
Watch out for impostor mate.

(December 4, 2014 at 10:40 am)Riketto Wrote:

(December 3, 2014 at 1:29 pm)Surgenator Wrote: Experiments and reasoning that are explained in the link I provided earlier on why NDE's are not evidence for an afterlife. The link that you refused to read.

You surely in your life must have gone through a border so you must know that when you try to enter a different country you must present your passport to the border post or to the custom at the airport.
The same thing happen when the physical science try to enter a different arena of consciousness.
Physical science need more than a passport to enter a place where there is no physicality.
So far this physical science has not really work out how to get the right passport to enter this arena.
But nothing is really impossible.
One day when physical science will work on subconscious as well a lot of progress will be made.
At the moment it is quite early to pretend that this physical science may be able to penetrate the higher layers of consciousness and to understand the science behind the NDEs.

First, you need proof of another country existing before you can talk about passports. You have not demonstrated the existence of an afterlife. So all this talk about passports is pointless. Demonstrate that there exist an afterlife.

Quote:

Quote:How popular or how seriously a majority of people take someone has nothing to do with the validity of the religion.

Correct.
That is why i early said that Buddhism is royal cream.

It's amazing how you 'know' whether someone is really a buddhist or just calls themselves a buddhist.

Quote:Buddhism can be a lot more than a religion provided that those who follow Buddha teaching stick to spirituality and not to external worship.
Only a tiny number of people really follow Buddha teaching, all the rest follow external worship which is worth next to nothing.

Buddhist do not worship anything external. They don't worship Buddha. There are no gods in buddhism. You're trying to draw this imaginary line between spiritulity and religion where you defined spirituality as all internal worship, and religion external worship. Such a line doesn't exist. Buddhism is an example that such a line doesn't exist. The difference between a religion and spiritualism (in today's time) is religion has a written doctrine and spiritualism is all touchy-feely.

(December 4, 2014 at 1:29 pm)Surgenator Wrote: First, you need proof of another country existing before you can talk about passports. You have not demonstrated the existence of an afterlife. So all this talk about passports is pointless. Demonstrate that there exist an afterlife.

It is absolutely bizarre that one day the atheists say that only science (meaning physical science) can be the answer but when a doctor (using physical science) say that the guy is dead the atheist say that he wasn't really dead.
NDEs were about people proven dead by the doctor not by Santa.
Now when someone who is proven dead by a doctor this is your science not Santa fake science.
So if the guy come back to life with something that he-she remember very well why not take him seriously?
And when instead of one guy there are thousand of guys that have the same or similar experience then the whole thing make sense.

Quote:It's amazing how you 'know' whether someone is really a buddhist or just calls themselves a buddhist.

I have been around a little bit to know who is who surgen.

Quote:Buddhist do not worship anything external. They don't worship Buddha. There are no gods in buddhism. You're trying to draw this imaginary line between spiritulity and religion where you defined spirituality as all internal worship, and religion external worship. Such a line doesn't exist. Buddhism is an example that such a line doesn't exist. The difference between a religion and spiritualism (in today's time) is religion has a written doctrine and spiritualism is all touchy-feely.

So you reckon that in the temples there are Buddha images just because Buddha is handsome.

I've been restraining myself from posting here for the past days... but I think I snapped something just now.

(December 5, 2014 at 10:51 am)Riketto Wrote: It is absolutely bizarre that one day the atheists say that only science (meaning physical science) can be the answer but when a doctor (using physical science) say that the guy is dead the atheist say that he wasn't really dead.
NDEs were about people proven dead by the doctor not by Santa.
Now when someone who is proven dead by a doctor this is your science not Santa fake science.

Because we know that people make mistakes... and doctors are people. And, usually, the diagnosis of death doesn't get peer reviewed, so... yeah.
Also, "proven"? Usually, a doctor declares a patient as dead, not proves the patient is dead.
To prove a patient is dead, they'd have to run some sort of a brainscan... or wait long enough - typically, 5 minutes without oxygen is enough for braindeath to be declared with very little margin of error, but 10 minutes is even better!
Still, there's a likelihood of error.

(December 5, 2014 at 10:51 am)Riketto Wrote: So if the guy come back to life with something that he-she remember very well why not take him seriously?
And when instead of one guy there are thousand of guys that have the same or similar experience then the whole thing make sense.

So the guy maybe wasn't dead to begin with, just weak... very weak... unnoticeable heartbeat... no motion... and then the person wakes up, claiming to have seen or felt something while in that low powered state.
You attribute that newly formed memory to NDE.... we say it's much much more likely to be just dreams.

(December 5, 2014 at 10:51 am)Riketto Wrote: It is absolutely bizarre that one day the atheists say that only science (meaning physical science) can be the answer

Atheist (generally speaking) don't say that. We say science is the best method we know of at acquiring truth.

Quote:but when a doctor (using physical science) say that the guy is dead the atheist say that he wasn't really dead.
NDEs were about people proven dead by the doctor not by Santa.
Now when someone who is proven dead by a doctor this is your science not Santa fake science.
So if the guy come back to life with something that he-she remember very well why not take him seriously?

As pocaracas already pointed out, doctors don't prove a person is dead. How do you know the person's memory wasn't created before their "death" or during their resuscitate? You claim it has to be when the person is dead. Where is your evidence thats when the memories were created? Please provide me with that evidence.

Quote:And when instead of one guy there are thousand of guys that have the same or similar experience then the whole thing make sense.

A thousand NOT NDE's guys get the same experience from undergoing high G's. How about that the experiences depends on the person's culture & religious beliefs, i.e. Xtians see Christ, Hindu's see Vishnu, etc...

Quote:

Quote:It's amazing how you 'know' whether someone is really a buddhist or just calls themselves a buddhist.

I have been around a little bit to know who is who surgen.

I was practicing my sarcasm on forums. Clearly I still have a long way to go.

Quote:So you reckon that in the temples there are Buddha images just because Buddha is handsome.

So you having a statue automatically means you worship it? Do you think gardeners worship gnomes? The Buddha is their end goal, not their god. It reminds them what they should be striving for.

(December 5, 2014 at 11:36 am)pocaracas Wrote: Because we know that people make mistakes... and doctors are people. And, usually, the diagnosis of death doesn't get peer reviewed, so... yeah.
Also, "proven"? Usually, a doctor declares a patient as dead, not proves the patient is dead.
To prove a patient is dead, they'd have to run some sort of a brainscan... or wait long enough - typically, 5 minutes without oxygen is enough for braindeath to be declared with very little margin of error, but 10 minutes is even better!
Still, there's a likelihood of error.

Gee, i always knew that the doctors are all a bunch of idiots.
With only 6 or so years at the uni they think they know everything.
They really should take advise from the atheists in order to know how to declare the guy alive or dead.

Quote:So the guy maybe wasn't dead to begin with, just weak... very weak... unnoticeable heartbeat... no motion... and then the person wakes up, claiming to have seen or felt something while in that low powered state.
You attribute that newly formed memory to NDE.... we say it's much much more likely to be just dreams.

Of course that they all were dreaming.
Thousand of them.
All in a zombie state.

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/NDERF_NDEs.htm

(December 5, 2014 at 10:51 am)Riketto Wrote: So you reckon that in the temples there are Buddha images just because Buddha is handsome.

So seeing a dog statue is enough reason for worship?

Or does it need to be in a temple to be adorable.

I would kick this god in the nuts for all the fucked up crap it allowed.

(December 6, 2014 at 10:15 am)abaris Wrote:

(December 5, 2014 at 10:51 am)Riketto Wrote: So you reckon that in the temples there are Buddha images just because Buddha is handsome.

So seeing a dog statue is enough reason for worship?
Or does it need to be in a temple to be adorable.

Time always cause changes especially after few thousand years.
Do the so called Buddhists follow what Buddha said?
Do the so called Christians follow what Christ said.
Of course not.
Nobody really follow the original message that is why spirituality turned into religion.
I can understand that Buddha or Christ or almost anybody else wouldn't wanted to see their images worship.
They rather wished that people coming later on follow the same spirituality that they were teaching but nothing really go according anyone plane.
It never happen it never will that is why after 3 or so thousand of years most people turn spirituality into a religion of worship with some exceptions.
Your lack of vision need to be sorted out mate.

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(December 6, 2014 at 10:27 am)Brian37 Wrote: I would kick this god in the nuts for all the fucked up crap it allowed.

So you are telling us that God is responsible for everybody suffereing?
And the evidence is.......?

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(December 5, 2014 at 1:04 pm)Surgenator Wrote: Atheist (generally speaking) don't say that. We say science is the best method we know of at acquiring truth.

How stupid are these doctors.
Studying years and years for acquiring nothing.

Quote:As pocaracas already pointed out, doctors don't prove a person is dead. How do you know the person's memory wasn't created before their "death" or during their resuscitate? You claim it has to be when the person is dead. Where is your evidence thats when the memories were created? Please provide me with that evidence.

That is funny how most people after their NDE avoid eating meat.

Quote:A thousand NOT NDE's guys get the same experience from undergoing high G's. How about that the experiences depends on the person's culture & religious beliefs, i.e. Xtians see Christ, Hindu's see Vishnu, etc...

Your kids may like to ply with different toys.
One like this one like that.
Why not let them ply with what they like most?

Quote: So you having a statue automatically means you worship it? Do you think gardeners worship gnomes? The Buddha is their end goal, not their god. It reminds them what they should be striving for.

How many Buddhists have you interview to know what they think about Buddha?

(December 6, 2014 at 10:37 am)Riketto Wrote:

(December 5, 2014 at 1:04 pm)Surgenator Wrote: Atheist (generally speaking) don't say that. We say science is the best method we know of at acquiring truth.

How stupid are these doctors.
Studying years and years for acquiring nothing.

So doctors not proving someone is dead automatically acquired no knowledge. You should consider how stupid that sounds. If a doctor sees that there is no heartbeat and fails to resuscitate the patient, 99.99% of the time is because the patient is dead. You're bringing up rare cases of where doctors were wrong, and then claim they don't know anything.

Quote:

Quote:As pocaracas already pointed out, doctors don't prove a person is dead. How do you know the person's memory wasn't created before their "death" or during their resuscitate? You claim it has to be when the person is dead. Where is your evidence thats when the memories were created? Please provide me with that evidence.

That is funny how most people after their NDE avoid eating meat.

Provide your source for this claim.

Quote:

Quote:A thousand NOT NDE's guys get the same experience from undergoing high G's. How about that the experiences depends on the person's culture & religious beliefs, i.e. Xtians see Christ, Hindu's see Vishnu, etc...

Your kids may like to ply with different toys.
One like this one like that.
Why not let them ply with what they like most?

So your tactic is to completely ignoring the point, and spouting gibberish.

Quote:

Quote: So you having a statue automatically means you worship it? Do you think gardeners worship gnomes? The Buddha is their end goal, not their god. It reminds them what they should be striving for.

How many Buddhists have you interview to know what they think about Buddha?

You should know there is a difference between what the doctrine says, and what people actually do. I'm arguing about what the Buddhist doctrine says. The doctrine says that the end goal of Buddhist is to remove oneself from wants.