(December 2, 2014 at 10:58 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(December 2, 2014 at 10:43 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Sorry all I could think of when I read the Title was BDSM.

Seriously, I think worship implies a kind of submission. That god asks for worship rather tha love, suggests something about the people imaging god.

Worship is high adoration. It's the highest classification of adoration and honoring. That means it's love. If people worship God and act of adoration to him, that's an act of love.

Submission implies they do it out of a sense of duty.

Although we should love God, we shouldn't love God because we should love him, we should love him out of love for who he is and it shouldn't be out of a sense of duty.

Worship of God should be in the spirit of love.

The corollary to that is that if your god loves us, he wouldn't demand our abasement.

I love my son. I don't demand he worship me, I don't demand that he structure his life around my rules. On the contrary, I revel in his growth into a young man with his own mind; I joy in his successes, and I commiserate in his failures, and I try to help him draw the appropriate lessons from both success and failure. I don't stop loving him because he gets angry at me, I don't stop loving him because he breaks my rules, and I certainly don't think of torture and torment as appropriate punishments.

That is my understanding of paternal love. I don't want him to worship me.

(December 12, 2014 at 10:48 am)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(December 2, 2014 at 10:58 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Worship is high adoration. It's the highest classification of adoration and honoring. That means it's love. If people worship God and act of adoration to him, that's an act of love.

Submission implies they do it out of a sense of duty.

Although we should love God, we shouldn't love God because we should love him, we should love him out of love for who he is and it shouldn't be out of a sense of duty.

Worship of God should be in the spirit of love.

The corollary to that is that if your god loves us, he wouldn't demand our abasement.

I love my son. I don't demand he worship me, I don't demand that he structure his life around my rules. On the contrary, I revel in his growth into a young man with his own mind; I joy in his successes, and I commiserate in his failures, and I try to help him draw the appropriate lessons from both success and failure. I don't stop loving him because he gets angry at me, I don't stop loving him because he breaks my rules, and I certainly don't think of torture and torment as appropriate punishments.

That is my understanding of paternal love. I don't want him to worship me.

You want him to love you with a love that is appropriate with you and your relationship with him. That certainly is not going to be that of worship.

When we love our wife or husband, we don't love them with a love the same as any woman or man we know. It's suppose to be extra special.

In the case of God, there is an extra respect and love that is suppose to be given to him, and that adoration is to the level of worship and that's because he is the ultimate being.

(December 12, 2014 at 8:47 am)robvalue Wrote: If he made me and made my life wonderful, and everyone else's, I would respect him. Maybe not worship, but I'd be very thankful and I'd not forget him.

I doubt you'd be thankful. More likely you'll become even more heedless of Him because now you have everything that you wanted. Now you're gonna be thinking of yourself as rich and self-sufficient.

This was a characteristic of the munafiqs (hypocrites) who used to make the same kind of promise as you did, i.e. that if only God made their lives wonderful by giving to them from His bounty, then surely they would become more thankful, righteous, and spend in charity. However, when He did give them from His bounty, they became stingy with it and instead turned away from God, thus breaking their promise.

"And among them are those who made a covenant with Allah, (saying), 'If He should give us from His bounty, we will surely spend in charity, and we will surely be among the righteous.' But when he gave them from His bounty, they were niggardly with it and turned back (from their covenant) and withdrew." (Surah 9:75-76)

Thus they only used their false promise as a shield in order to hide their true intentions and their opposition to God. It was used as a cloaking device under the guise of being a sincere promise.

"They have taken their oaths as a cover, so they turn away from the way of Allah." (Surah 63:02)

(December 12, 2014 at 8:47 am)robvalue Wrote: Worshipping is just weird, and why the hell would an omnipotent being require it? Or anything? A dead giveaway that it's another pile of crap.

No, He doesn't require our worship. Rather it is we who stand in need of Him.

"O mankind, it is you who stand in need of Allah, but Allah is the One Free of all wants, worthy of all praise." (Surah 35:15)

(December 12, 2014 at 8:47 am)robvalue Wrote: Are you defending enforced worship? I can't make any sense of what you wrote. Threats are threats. They are not love.

I didn't say that threats are love. What I explained was that God's threats/punishments are not incompatible with being able to love Him.

(December 12, 2014 at 8:47 am)robvalue Wrote: I have a series of videos that give you an idea why threats and free choice do not go together well. Please watch.

Well you do have the freedom to either submit or not to submit, which is, respectively, a choice between God's pleasure and His punishment.

OK then. When someone is holding my immortal soul hostage, I do not consider that any fair kind of choice. It is bullying and coercion. Did you watch my video?

Yeah, I watched the video, or else I wouldn't have responded to that comment.

You might think that it's not fair to hold your soul hostage, but on that day man will be a hostage against his own self, despite his unavailing argumentation with his Lord.

"Nay! Man, against himself, will be a witness. Even if he presents excuses." (Surah 75:14-15)

MysticKnight Wrote:You want him to love you with a love that ics appropriate with you and your relationship with him. That certainly is not going to be that of worship.

When we love our wife or husband, we don't love them with a love the same as any woman or man we know. It's suppose to be extra special.

In the case of God, there is an extra respect and love that is suppose to be given to him, and that adoration is to the level of worship and that's because he is the ultimate being.

That doesn't comport with my conception of love
Thanks, I'll pass.

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(December 12, 2014 at 8:42 pm)Rayaan Wrote: Yeah, I watched the video, or else I wouldn't have responded to that comment.

You might think that it's not fair to hold your soul hostage, but on that day man will be a hostage against his own self, despite his unavailing argumentation with his Lord.

"Nay! Man, against himself, will be a witness. Even if he presents excuses." (Surah 75:14-15)

One day Godzilla will kick Rodan's ass for good, too.

That's my way of saying that preaching adds nothing of value to a discussion.

You did nothing to address my point rayaan, just added some stuff that didn't make sense while kind of acknowledging I am right. Remember I put no stock in the truth of the bible, so quoting verses at me is a waste of time. Just letting you know. I'd love it for people to think for themselves, and come up with sensible arguments.