(December 23, 2014 at 9:21 am)Piscinin Wrote: 3. People are just idiotic sheep. You always wonder; how did the germans believe that kind of propaganda? Then you hear lots of republican americans with "we bomb the shit out of your country to bring democracy", or "we are threatened by ISIS...or the taliban...or any goatherder out there"...and you lose faith in humanity.

People's beliefs are products of the information they get. One of the big steps we've taken toward fascism is how we've allowed our media to be taken over by a few major corporations, so all Americans get is the corporate spin on everything.

Even MSNBC is owned by General Electric, a major defense contractor, so even the so-called "liberal" channel is going to be motivated to offer the pro-war spin on everything.

And then there's the more blatant propaganda of the "conservative" media on Fox and hate-talk radio:




It's really no wonder that a substantial segment of our voting bloc in America has completely lost its mind.

Propaganda works, sad to say.

(December 23, 2014 at 10:43 am)Alex K Wrote: Of course, Germany is significantly less corrupted by military power since '45 because it has none worth speaking of, and after the war has all but withdrawn from military operations till the 90s. So bombing people into oblivion and then lying to justify it wasn't really on the table.

I had a history teacher who was from West Berlin and he's talked about his time in the Army. Essentially, he said the worst thing he or anyone else did was drive tanks around in a circle. When I said it sounded like M*A*S*H only without the actual tragedy, he said that sounded right. Given that NATO has ensured that Germany's military has been kept as far out of combat duty as possible, this is probably for the best.

(December 21, 2014 at 9:14 am)A Theist Wrote: No, but I can tell you how to "kiss my ass" in English. This comes from a country who murdered millions of Jews in their own state sponsored death camps. Not too many atrocities from history compares to what Germany did....and the German people were apathetic to it.

I don't believe there are very many Germans from that era alive, and I reject the concept of collective guilt.

(December 23, 2014 at 3:35 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(December 21, 2014 at 9:14 am)A Theist Wrote: No, but I can tell you how to "kiss my ass" in English. This comes from a country who murdered millions of Jews in their own state sponsored death camps. Not too many atrocities from history compares to what Germany did....and the German people were apathetic to it.

I don't believe there are very many Germans from that era alive, and I reject the concept of collective guilt.

According to the latest statistics, Germany has 7,468,552 men and female 9,659,265 women alive who were born in 1949 or before. I doubt there's going to be that radical a difference in numbers between people born before 1949 and people before 1945.

(December 23, 2014 at 3:47 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: According to the latest statistics, Germany has 7,468,552 men and female 9,659,265 women alive who were born in 1949 or before. I doubt there's going to be that radical a difference in numbers between people born before 1949 and people before 1945.

You do realize that the ones actually being young adults at the time would be high in their 80ies or 90ies. The ones being children would be at least in their 70ies.

(December 23, 2014 at 3:35 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(December 21, 2014 at 9:14 am)A Theist Wrote: No, but I can tell you how to "kiss my ass" in English. This comes from a country who murdered millions of Jews in their own state sponsored death camps. Not too many atrocities from history compares to what Germany did....and the German people were apathetic to it.

I don't believe there are very many Germans from that era alive, and I reject the concept of collective guilt.

It's all moot anyway. ATheist's defense of American torture boils down to a Ad Hominem Tu Quoque argument anyway.

He's fond of that fallacy.

I would note from the same article:

Quote: Meanwhile, President Obama is standing by his long-standing refusal to investigate or prosecute Bush administration officials for the torture program. In a statement, he called on the nation not to, quote, "refight old arguments." As Obama continues to reject a criminal probe of Bush-era torture, former Vice President Dick Cheney has said he would do it all again. Cheney spoke to NBC’s Meet the Press Sunday.

Why could that be eh? Well maybe because Obama kept open all the torture camps and would be just as subject to prosecution if Bush is prosecuted.

(December 23, 2014 at 4:32 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Why could that be eh? Well maybe because Obama kept open all the torture camps and would be just as subject to prosecution if Bush is prosecuted.

That's why they all hurry to pardon their predecessors. Ford did the same for Nixon.

(December 23, 2014 at 4:02 pm)abaris Wrote:

(December 23, 2014 at 3:47 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: According to the latest statistics, Germany has 7,468,552 men and female 9,659,265 women alive who were born in 1949 or before. I doubt there's going to be that radical a difference in numbers between people born before 1949 and people before 1945.

You do realize that the ones actually being young adults at the time would be high in their 80ies or 90ies. The ones being children would be at least in their 70ies.

He did say there were hardly any Germans from that era alive, and I counted all those alive at the time as being "from that era."

Granted, since the Deutsches Jungvolk considsted of every boy from 10-14, that would necessitate them being over 79, which would definitely be lower.

(December 23, 2014 at 3:47 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: According to the latest statistics, Germany has 7,468,552 men and female 9,659,265 women alive who were born in 1949 or before. I doubt there's going to be that radical a difference in numbers between people born before 1949 and people before 1945.

Remember, we're talking about guilt, and why criticizing Germans alive today for the Holocaust isn't really fair.

I don't think it's meaningful to include Germans born during the war, as they were infants and toddlers and unable to process the Holocaust and its meaning at all. I also don't think it's fair to include those born after around 1930, because while they might have known about the mass murder, one can hardly expect children to take up arms against their own state. Being impressed into the Hitlerjugend is one thing; armed revolt against the Reich, quite another.

With that being the case, we're really looking for Germans who are 84 and older. And I'd be willing to bet that their numbers are far, far smaller than the 17 million you got from Mundi -- which, by the way, aren't the latest statistics.

According to the National Institute on Aging, worldwide the proportion of 85 and older, (i.e. born 1929 and before) make up about 7% of the population 65+ years old. Assuming that to be the case for Germany, that means there are about 1.2 million Germans 85 and older alive, who might properly be held culpable for aiding, abetting, or ignoring the Holocaust.

That's about 1.4% of Germany's population.

Given this reasoning, I stand by what I said earlier. There are few Germans alive today from that era, and criticizing Germany as a whole for the possible misdeeds or inactions of 1.4% of the population is unfair on its face.