(January 28, 2015 at 4:49 pm)Roxy904 Wrote: You can have faith in your religion, and still believe in evolution.

Seriously?!?! How is it that you feel you can comment on a thread if you haven't read the op? You are speaking to me of what you believe of Christianity and of Christian belief. None of which has any bearing on what has been discussed here.

Quote:The points have been reiterated and re-explained to you, and you continue to provide the same arguments.

show me. You are big on baseless accusations. (Just like in your last post.) give me post numbers where my arguements do not specifically apply to the details I am answering.

Quote:Of course, some of the Bible is plausible, and of course, some events reflect possible historical events at the time. But that does not mean that you can take the word of the Bible as the literal word of God.

Funny thing, when you do... God shows up in your life. Maybe, that is why I believe as I do and you and yours believe as you do.

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(January 28, 2015 at 4:53 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(January 28, 2015 at 4:30 pm)Drich Wrote: If you want to continue this conversation you willl need to directly answer my questions. why? because everything I have said here I have now said to you specifically two or three times. Show me your reading and processing what I have to say.

I have explained why what you are saying does not suffice, in at least two or three different ways. If you disagree that's fine, but I'm not under any obligation to discard the major issue with your claims just to focus on everything except that major issue. As I said, your need to salvage the story is not my problem; I am not forced to discount the 800-lb gorilla in the room (the sheer size of the group and the long time scale) in order to discuss the issue.

You've lost your right to introduce any more new material into this conversation till you provide an accurate synopsis of my position. Why? Because your last two attemps were strawmen, and for as much time and effort I have in here breaking this discussion down to you. This laps in your understanding seems to be intentional. Therefore I will not waste any more of my time, until you account for the time I have already spent here.

So again as per my last two posts answer the questions I asked and restate my position as I have stated it.

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(January 28, 2015 at 6:08 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote:

(January 28, 2015 at 4:40 pm)Drich Wrote: I've allready conceed the fact that what I said here does not regester as evidence that it did happen. I am pointing out that the Exodus account is plausible. Just as all of the other 'historical' stories of cities, and men lost to the desert with absolutly no evidence.

Plausible is a real stretch IMO. It would only be plausible if manna and water from rocks was plausible, because there is no other way millions of people and animals could survive in the desert - not when the population of Egypt, the most productive farmland of the world, was only 3 million at that time.

Of course, there may have been some real events that inspired the myth of Exodus.

You missing the bigger point here.
If manna and water from rocks were known/knowable events then why would the jews worship God?

All the stuff that they witnessed in the desert establishes God to the nation of Israel. Before this He only spoke to a few patriarchs.

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(January 28, 2015 at 7:31 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(January 28, 2015 at 6:08 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: Plausible is a real stretch IMO. It would only be plausible if manna and water from rocks was plausible, because there is no other way millions of people and animals could survive in the desert - not when the population of Egypt, the most productive farmland of the world, was only 3 million at that time.

I'm curious as to this 'manna'; what it supposedly was and where it cane from. I wonder if Drich subscribes to the Velikovsky idea that it was a by-product of the planet Venus, after it was birthed from Jupiter's Great Red Spot and went bouncing arong the Solar System like every shot I make in a game of pool? Supposedly, it passed by Earth twice, the first time causing the Red Sea to divide (because, y'know - gravity is magic) then later, when it made chemical changes in our atmosphere and magically invented this edible, nourishing 'manna' which fell out of the clouds just where and when the script needed it.

I posted this for someone who 'couldnt' read the bible, just in case you suffer from the same affliction he does, wiki does a fair job.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manna

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(January 29, 2015 at 2:07 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: Well, yes ,the entire thrust of the Pentateuch is that seeking knowledge and thinking for yourself are both deadly sins.

Seeking knoweledge for yourself, 4000 years ago.. So do you think a lot of this modern endeavor was the goal of indivisual people then?

(January 29, 2015 at 9:02 am)Drich Wrote:

(January 28, 2015 at 4:49 pm)Roxy904 Wrote: Of course, some of the Bible is plausible, and of course, some events reflect possible historical events at the time. But that does not mean that you can take the word of the Bible as the literal word of God.

Funny thing, when you do... God shows up in your life. Maybe, that is why I believe as I do and you and yours believe as you do.

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Did god literally show up drich?

You've seen it and had a two way conversation with it?

Quote:Maybe, that is why I believe as I do and you and yours believe as you do.

Would you ever consider this experience to be a mental health issue? Seriously.

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(January 29, 2015 at 9:02 am)Drich Wrote: You've lost your right to introduce any more new material into this conversation till you provide an accurate synopsis of my position.

Once again, I am under no obligation to meet your demands, arbitrary or otherwise. Nor do I need to figure out the moving target that you want to describe as your position. I don't have to introduce any new material, even if you somehow had the power to revoke that 'right'; the point I have made remains a valid point regardless of your dismissals. The reference to other issues just shows that even if you want to shrug off the problems of scale, the plausibility of the event remains pretty much zero.

(January 29, 2015 at 9:33 am)h4ym4n Wrote: Did god literally show up drich?

You've seen it and had a two way conversation with it?

Maybe, that is why I believe as I do and you and yours believe as you do.
A repersenitive/messenger did.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html

Quote:Would you ever consider this experience to be a mental health issue? Seriously.

I sometimes work with troubled teens and underprivileged kids. Which means mandated psyc evaluation.
I've been cleared many times.

The problem with atheist? You all tend to want the easy answers in life. The intelectually lazy way out. You seek the answers that allow your o keep your perspective, and makes the 'issue' (whatever it is) someone else's problem.

Here's a thought, if most of the world seem to have a psyc issue through your eyes, then maybe you should more closely examine the lenses you view the world with.

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(January 29, 2015 at 9:36 am)Tonus Wrote:

(January 29, 2015 at 9:02 am)Drich Wrote: You've lost your right to introduce any more new material into this conversation till you provide an accurate synopsis of my position.

Once again, I am under no obligation to meet your demands, arbitrary or otherwise. Nor do I need to figure out the moving target that you want to describe as your position. I don't have to introduce any new material, even if you somehow had the power to revoke that 'right'; the point I have made remains a valid point regardless of your dismissals. The reference to other issues just shows that even if you want to shrug off the problems of scale, the plausibility of the event remains pretty much zero.

"

If you can show that you are seriously considering or at least in comperhension of my efforts in this conversation then their is absolutly no reason for me to continue.

It's like you have shut your mind off to everything besides the strawman arguements you need to fuel your one sided discussion. What's even more sad, you seem to be afraid to simply state my position as I have given it to you. Let alone directly answer questions concerning the logic you have used to formulate your thoughts.

When you're read to have an adult conversation with a free exchange of ideas let me know.

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(January 29, 2015 at 9:46 am)Drich Wrote: If you can show that you are seriously considering or at least in comperhension of my efforts in this conversation then their is absolutly no reason for me to continue.

You've said this three times already, so my response is the same as above. If you want to drop the conversation, you are free to do so; I won't threaten to revoke your right to it.

(January 29, 2015 at 9:46 am)Drich Wrote:

(January 29, 2015 at 9:33 am)h4ym4n Wrote: Did god literally show up drich?

You've seen it and had a two way conversation with it?


Would you ever consider this experience to be a mental health issue? Seriously.

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A repersenitive/messenger did.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html

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Interesting story. Wasn't god itself then.

Quote:For you see I'm what you might call a psychic." Then he asked do you want to hear where your problems are, and what the Lord has in store for you? I nodded my head, and He began very quickly to list all of the problems my dad and I were having, then He went i

Anyone who carries the message of God is indeed one of His messengers.

You're a big scripture guy.

What does scripture say about mediums, futune tellers, psychics, sorcerers, charmers, necromancers?

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(January 29, 2015 at 9:57 am)Tonus Wrote:

(January 29, 2015 at 9:46 am)Drich Wrote: If you can show that you are seriously considering or at least in comperhension of my efforts in this conversation then their is absolutly no reason for me to continue.

You've said this three times already, so my response is the same as above. If you want to drop the conversation, you are free to do so; I won't threaten to revoke your right to it.

I haven't dropped anything, I want to proceed. However you don't seem to share this desire, as your having a completely different conversation with subjects and topics that do not belong to me.

What choice do I have, if your going to stawman your way through this topic?

Show me that your will to honor your end of the conversation by addressing the points I bring up, and not the lazy crap you have been attributing to me and arguing against.

(January 29, 2015 at 9:02 am)Drich Wrote:

(January 28, 2015 at 6:08 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: Plausible is a real stretch IMO. It would only be plausible if manna and water from rocks was plausible, because there is no other way millions of people and animals could survive in the desert - not when the population of Egypt, the most productive farmland of the world, was only 3 million at that time.

Of course, there may have been some real events that inspired the myth of Exodus.

You missing the bigger point here.
If manna and water from rocks were known/knowable events then why would the jews worship God?

All the stuff that they witnessed in the desert establishes God to the nation of Israel. Before this He only spoke to a few patriarchs.

I'm confused by what you mean by "known/knowable events". I'm guessing you mean "non-miraculous events"?

I agree that according the story, God was trying to create a generation of Israelites who trusted God, so they could be the nation that God promised Abraham, follow God's law, blah blah blah. So making them depend on miraculous food and water was part of God's plan.

If you're willing to believe in manna, then I suppose it's not such a stretch to believe that the Israelites fastidiously recycled all their waste or that people eating manna had no need to defecate, or that there was no trash because nothing wore out, or whatever.

We might also believe that God created the universe 6000 years ago in such a way that it appeared to have been created by a big bang 13 billion years ago.

One problem with miracles is that God supposedly created the laws of nature (gravity, etc.) It seems to me that God would not break those laws willy-nilly to impress a group of people so that they could go and commit genocide in the promised land. Wouldn't it make more sense for God to use his miraculous power to make the indigenous peoples of the promised land welcome the Israelites as God's chosen people?

(January 29, 2015 at 10:10 am)h4ym4n Wrote:

(January 29, 2015 at 9:46 am)Drich Wrote: A repersenitive/messenger did.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html

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Interesting story. Wasn't god itself then.

Quote:For you see I'm what you might call a psychic." Then he asked do you want to hear where your problems are, and what the Lord has in store for you? I nodded my head, and He began very quickly to list all of the problems my dad and I were having, then He went i

Anyone who carries the message of God is indeed one of His messengers.

You're a big scripture guy.

What does scripture say about mediums, futune tellers, psychics, sorcerers, charmers, necromancers?

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Define God.
If it includes the Holy Spirit then an arguement can be made that angels are apart of the Holy Spirit.

Second if a messenger carries the word of God then He speaks with the authority of God whomever that messenger maybe.

Lastly he did not tell me he was a fortune teller/psychic. Read it again. He said I'm what YOU might call... Meaning, if one has the option in the identification of this being. He never identified himself as anything. His work and words as they have come true over the years has identified him.

@Drich, as I am remembing the whole story of Exodus, how can you take that literally and have any love for God? God hardens the heart of Pharaoh, so he can punish Egypt with plagues - culminating in God's Angel killing every firstborn in Egypt ... even animals?

There are numerous stories in the Bible where God seems to be a very evil being. You can't take these stories literally and still love such a God. You might worship this God out of fear, but you could not love it.

So if you want to continue believing in God, then you need to stop taking the Bible literally - just like Roxy suggested in an early post.