If the statement god is good has any value, then morality must be independent of god. If morality is independent of god, then god is not the source of morality and therefore god as envisaged by Christianity does not exist. Therefore chrsitianity is false.

God IS good. As in, God is goodness and is the source of all good. He IS all of the good itself.

What is morality but the aspiration to the best standard? As 'God' is defined as supremely good, then there can be no better moral standard.

(August 15, 2010 at 3:05 pm)Watson Wrote: God IS good. As in, God is goodness and is the source of all good. He IS all of the good itself.

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But what does that mean? To atheists it sounds a bit mumbo jumbo. If god is the source of all good, god is good is meaningless because he is not independent of his own standards. If he is the source of all values by virtue of being intrinsicly good, that would mean he radiates goodness into the universe. So rocks and galaxies would also be moral. There is a shed load of biblical stuff that we could interject here but it would send this thread in another direction. You need to show where my premises or logic is flawed, rather than assert "god is good".

(August 15, 2010 at 3:05 pm)Watson Wrote: God IS good. As in, God is goodness and is the source of all good. He IS all of the good itself.

Quote:1Sa 6:19 And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten [many] of the people with a great slaughter.

Your god is a murdering shit...according to your own book.

I discussed the Euthyphro Dilemma in another thread. Nonetheless, it wasn't dealt with satisfactorily there.

'Fr0d0 Wrote:'As 'God' is defined as supremely good, then there can be no better moral standard.

So what does goodness mean? Whatever God says is good? In which case, he could command us to kill grannies, and that'd be good.

Well, killing grannies depends. If they're terminally ill and just want painless euthanasia I'm all for it.

That applies to younger people too of course.

(August 15, 2010 at 2:53 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote: If the statement god is good has any value, then morality must be independent of god. If morality is independent of god, then god is not the source of morality and therefore god as envisaged by Christianity does not exist. Therefore chrsitianity is false.

How? This argument doesn't seem well thought out.

Are you trying to imply that humans give god the good attribute and therefore own their morality?

(August 15, 2010 at 5:15 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Well, killing grannies depends. If they're terminally ill and just want painless euthanasia I'm all for it.

That applies to younger people too of course.

That's true. Whether we should bump them off without their consent is a difficult issue, but certainly voluntary euthanasia is the way forward. Can't we all be like Oregon?

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(August 15, 2010 at 5:18 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: How? This argument doesn't seem well thought out.

Are you trying to imply that humans give god the good attribute and therefore own their morality?

As I see it, this argument is not so much an argument against Christianity's truth, as against its being moral. Basically, the difficulty can be phrased like this: 'Is something good because God commands it, or does he command it because it's good?' If the former, morality is arbitrary. God could command the torture of babies, and that'd be considered 'good'. If the latter, then morality is independent of God, and we don't need a god for morality.

Quote:Can't we all be like Oregon?

Apparently not while the lunatic fringe is running around loose.