(March 21, 2015 at 3:17 pm)abaris Wrote:

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(March 21, 2015 at 2:45 pm)JuliaL Wrote: It is hard to judge the minds of the decision makers of 60 years ago. We cannot un-learn what is now common wisdom regarding nuclear winter and the long term effects of widespread high level fallout. The 1950s was a time when above ground testing was considered reasonable, high level nuclear waste disposal was a problem we would solve when necessary.

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Oh, they knew enough to willingly expose their own soldiers to the nuclear fallout. To test what it did to their organisms. Both super powers did that in the 50ies.

And then there were turds like Edward Teller, who never grew tired of demanding a first strike against the Russians, even if it meant widespread destruction.

You and I agree that Edward Teller was a shit. He and Curtis LeMay along with Stalin & Mao are some of my least favorite people of history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay

Quote:During the war, he was known for planning and executing a massive bombing campaign against cities in Japan and a crippling minelaying campaign in Japan's internal waterways. After the war, he initiated the Berlin airlift, then reorganized the Strategic Air Command (SAC) into an effective instrument of nuclear war.

My interest in knowing Teller's (and others of his time) mind stems from wanting to understand why he (as do all of us) thought he was right in his actions. Was he toilet trained too harshly?

I would like to know on what basis will the future judge us. I like to think it will be for killing off all the other intelligent species on the planet in favor of American SUVs. Continuing to breed without limit and burn millions of MBtus of fossil fuels well after the effects of climate change became painfully obvious is in second place.

(March 21, 2015 at 3:47 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: I am much more scared of biological warfare than nuclear ones

Also in agreement, though I'm not as scared of bio-warfare as I am of bio-terrorism. The warfare guys are at least trying to do only a controllable amount of damage. The techniques and technologies of gene manipulation and organism building are becoming more widespread. Our immunities, which have had millions of years to co-evolve with most of the micro-biome, are not up to the task of facing a directed attack.
The idea is common in fiction; in The Stand (Stephen King) the bug isn't specified but kills off pretty much everybody. I've read others where the bad news is a modified yersinia(plague) where the pneumonic form was made just a little more contagious and one where the 1919 Flu was re-created by the baddies (think a maker-bot on an atomic scale.)
Of course, in all the fiction I've read on this, the good guys win so we really shouldn't worry, right?

The notion the Edward teller was the lone traitor from the generally peace loving scientifi community to defect to the nuclear loony camp is not quite true. Edward teller was far from the only scientific luminary who advocated a nuclear Pearl harbor against the USSR and believed killing most of the innocent civil population of the communist world in a sneak attack was not morally wrong, and was a small price to pay for achieving victory for the cause of "freedom".

One often repeated quote from another highly influential scientist is "if you say bomb communist russia tomorrow, I say why not today? If you say bomb russia by noon, I say why not before breakfast?"

(March 21, 2015 at 6:12 pm)Chuck Wrote:

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The notion the Edward teller was the lone traitor from the generally peace loving scientifi community to defect to the nuclear loony camp is not quite true. Edward teller was far from the only scientific luminary who advocated a nuclear Pearl harbor against the USSR and believed killing most of the innocent civil population of the communist world in a sneak attack was not morally wrong, and was a small price to pay for achieving victory for the cause of "freedom".

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One often repeated quote from another highly influential scientist is "if you say bomb communist russia tomorrow, I say why not today? If you say bomb russia by noon, I say why not before breakfast?"

Is that sort of thinking unknown today? Or is it just limited to people I don't know?
They had to think completely differently than I do. I know I think differently from most of the American public. At least I always vote for losers.
I have to believe there was something intrinsically different in the "greatest" generation. I wish I knew what it was. I think a love for nuclear war is really a holdout from a time when total war was 'winnable' and may even date from a time when war was waged by farmers with essentially the same implements that they were using on the farm; big knives, sticks and rocks. Not so long ago it made romantic sense to have a local champion to keep the peace so the rest of the community could grow food and only worry about dying of starvation before spring.

No one needs to be worried about nuclear weapons. Just leave the money under the bridge, follow all the other instructions in my next message, and you'll be fine.

Boru

(March 21, 2015 at 6:05 pm)JuliaL Wrote: You and I agree that Edward Teller was a shit. He and Curtis LeMay along with Stalin & Mao are some of my least favorite people of history.

I left LeMay out for two reasons. One, I didn't know how he's spelled and couldn't be arsed to look that up. Two, he was some bullheaded not to educated soldier type and I cut him some slack for being an idiot. His horizon never rose over bomb, bomb, bomb.

(March 21, 2015 at 6:41 pm)abaris Wrote:

(March 21, 2015 at 6:05 pm)JuliaL Wrote: You and I agree that Edward Teller was a shit. He and Curtis LeMay along with Stalin & Mao are some of my least favorite people of history.

I left LeMay out for two reasons. One, I didn't know how he's spelled and couldn't be arsed to look that up. Two, he was some bullheaded not to educated soldier type and I cut him some slack for being an idiot. His horizon never rose over bomb, bomb, bomb.

His job was to kill people and break things. He was efficient.

(March 21, 2015 at 6:49 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(March 21, 2015 at 6:41 pm)abaris Wrote: I left LeMay out for two reasons. One, I didn't know how he's spelled and couldn't be arsed to look that up. Two, he was some bullheaded not to educated soldier type and I cut him some slack for being an idiot. His horizon never rose over bomb, bomb, bomb.

His job was to kill people and break things. He was efficient.

Amazing how he could have hanged for this if he did his job for the other side.

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(March 21, 2015 at 6:23 pm)JuliaL Wrote: Is that sort of thinking unknown today?

Absolutely not.

(March 21, 2015 at 6:23 pm)JuliaL Wrote: I have to believe there was something intrinsically different in the "greatest" generation. I wish I knew what it was.

The photoshopped cepiatone picture that gave that generation a golden glow was careful to airbrush out many of the less creditable thoughts and motivations of influential members that generation. It's almost as if we like to be as faithful to history as official soviet historic photographs were faith to the membership list of the politburo before the Stalin purge.

I live within 100 miles of a nuclear power plant endangered by the massive Missouri River flood a few years ago.

Even though the plant was shut down for refueling, it was still a worry. Particularly after the flood subsided, and the NRC used ground penetrating radar all around the facility to see if the river had eroded voids under the plant.

If they are looking for a problem like that, I'm thinking the plausibility and the possibility of the plant suffering catastrophic damage in a flood is something to think about.

Also, there was some discussion about the 'what ifs' regarding 1, 2 or 3 of the large upstream dams failing. The water was bad enough as it was, a large dam failure would have raised the flood level near the power plant by 20 to 40 feet.

In such a disaster, there would be terrific damage from the water, possibly clear to New Orleans LA, and the possibility of that water being intensely radioactive, would make Fukushima look like a wet firecracker. The country would be nearly split in 2 with a muddy radioactive hell possibly tens of miles wide from Omaha to the Gulf of Mexico.

(March 21, 2015 at 11:28 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: I live within 100 miles of a nuclear power plant endangered by the massive Missouri River flood a few years ago.

Even though the plant was shut down for refueling, it was still a worry. Particularly after the flood subsided, and the NRC used ground penetrating radar all around the facility to see if the river had eroded voids under the plant.

If they are looking for a problem like that, I'm thinking the plausibility and the possibility of the plant suffering catastrophic damage in a flood is something to think about.

Also, there was some discussion about the 'what ifs' regarding 1, 2 or 3 of the large upstream dams failing. The water was bad enough as it was, a large dam failure would have raised the flood level near the power plant by 20 to 40 feet.

In such a disaster, there would be terrific damage from the water, possibly clear to New Orleans LA, and the possibility of that water being intensely radioactive, would make Fukushima look like a wet firecracker. The country would be nearly split in 2 with a muddy radioactive hell possibly tens of miles wide from Omaha to the Gulf of Mexico.

The sort of nuclear diseaster you describe would only occur if the working reactor core melts down. It is a foregone conclusion that the Containment around the reactor core would not be breached by either a massive flood, or an undermining of the foundation of the containment building. So the reactor melt down would not be the direct result of flooding. The only possible way a flooding could lead to core melt down is if it indirectly disrupts the power supply to coolant water pumps.

The avoidance of disruption of power supply to coolant pumps is simple as putting backup emergency diesel generator and its fuel supply above the flood level of the water.

So while anything would spread uncontrollable panic about a nuclear power plant, actual chance of a natural diseaster leading to a major nuclear diseaster is actually fairly low.

(March 21, 2015 at 7:39 pm)Chuck Wrote:

(March 21, 2015 at 6:49 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: His job was to kill people and break things. He was efficient.

Amazing how he could have hanged for this if he did his job for the other side.

"Amazing"? More like business as usual. Victor's justice, y'know. By the same token, Admiral Lockwood should have been prosecuted for doing the same thing in the Pacific that Dönitz did in the Atlantic, executing unrestricted submarine warfare.

Barbarities happen in war. The losing side rarely has enough power left to enforce its own justice. This is a sad fact of history.

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