A lot of people say, how do we know that infinite regress is not possible, and that there isn't an infinite chain of cause and effects.

A chain of effects is an effect.
An effect requires a cause.
A chain of effects thus requires a cause.


Now, a chain of infinite effects would be without cause right? But we know a chain of infinite effects is still a chain of effects and each of the effects requires a cause, the whole chains of effects all require a cause. Therefore it's by definition without a cause and with a cause, a contradiction, an impossibility.

Another thing is that it's as if every chain is a person in army that won't shoot unless the person next to him shoots. There being infinite people, all saying, they won't shoot unless the person next to him shoots. But there not being an actual one person who shoots without a person telling him, it would never actualize. 

Another argument is that all of time cannot be said to be eternal. That is the present of time, a lot of the time in the past, for sure is not eternal. It can also be said that no point in time is eternal. If no point in time is eternal, that it doesn't have an eternal existence. To say, "but a point of time always existed" is circular and is obviously wrong as no point of time is eternal and was the point of eternal beginning. 

Now with a beginning, there is beginning. Stating there is real no "before" the beginning, doesn't show that beginning is eternal and thus without cause. Therefore something that is eternal needs to cause the beginning. To say "what is more north then north pole" doesn't make sense, because eternalness is the utmost beginning of beginning, while a point of time, even the first, would need to come into being, and cannot cause itself. 

This shows there is an eternal cause who originated time.  But it's obvious a physical thing cannot simply create time and make the whole universe subservient to time, as it would need time to do that. 

It existing before things subject to time, is none physical being. 

Now this doesn't prove God, but this proves a Creator. And if you guys can accept a Creator to start with, perhaps, you will accept the knowledge of God and his Oneness as well.

Change your thread title from proof to belief.

It's still an olympic sized leap between "divine creator" and Jesus/Yahweh/Allah. You can be a deist if you want to, but I don't see the point.

Hypothetically speaking, given that we accept your line of reasoning.
Which we don't, but more on that later.
Now prove that it's allah that is the cause , not the FSM or Odin.

(April 11, 2015 at 7:35 pm)Zen Badger Wrote: Hypothetically speaking, given that we accept your line of reasoning.
Which we don't, but more on that later.
Now prove that it's allah that is the cause , not the FSM or Odin.

This is a red herring. I've shown proofs for God's Divine Names, and shown from that guidance of his chosen friends who are near to him and their path straight through out the journey, is obvious. But those are other topics.

Let's deal with the topic at hand. Let's see you guys refute the argument.

Prove that your eternal cause(God) is eternal and doesn't itself have a cause.

(April 11, 2015 at 7:40 pm)Zen Badger Wrote: Prove that your eternal cause(God) is eternal and doesn't itself have a cause.

I already did.

(April 11, 2015 at 7:37 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 11, 2015 at 7:35 pm)Zen Badger Wrote: Hypothetically speaking, given that we accept your line of reasoning.
Which we don't, but more on that later.
Now prove that it's allah that is the cause , not the FSM or Odin.

This is a red herring. I've shown proofs for God's Divine Names, and shown from that guidance of his chosen friends who are near to him and their path straight through out the journey, is obvious. But those are other topics.

Let's deal with the topic at hand. Let's see you guys refute the argument.

The burden of proof isn't on the unbeliever. It's always on the one making a positive claim. I'm not claiming there isn't a god. I just don't believe the stories of the bible are any more compelling than any other similar stories from older religions. I wouldn't ask you to disprove every other deity first, so don't ask me to disprove yours.

It doesn't require a cause.

Quote:This is a red herring. I've shown proofs for God's Divine Names,

MK, you've never proven a fucking thing beyond your own ability to delude yourself.

Of that, I am convinced.