(April 16, 2015 at 6:22 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Technically we pay for the "sin" by being "cursed" to toil the earth and have it's thorns rise up against us, to feed our bitching wives who will never be satisfied (also part of the curse) - and of course cursed to inseminate them with little bundles of joyous torture (take that EVE!).  Then, of course...there's the whole death thing.

Dirt got cursed to, guilt by association.  

That was what was passed on from generation to generation.  A life of toil and misery.  Hell is a bonus.  Not disagreeing that it's all a ridiculous crock - just prepping you  for the inevitably inane apologist's response.

Hhhm. People apologize when they've done something wrong. Ever wonder what Christians are apologizing for?

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(April 16, 2015 at 6:59 pm)professor Wrote: The Fall of all men (women too) has been with us since the Garden, in that we all blow it.

I suppose Adam was set-up in the same way a teacher sets-up students with a test.
The kid fails the test and blames the teacher.

Actually Adam was not deceived, he was unwilling to be separated from Eve by her disobedience, and he knowingly ate the forbidden fruit,
 in the same way the Second Adam (Jesus Christ) partook of death to undo our disobedience within the Justice of God.

We're not talking about a teacher who doesn't know what a student will do until she tests him. We're talking about an omniscient God who supposedly knows the end from the beginning. Why would a being of any level of intelligence test the man to see if he will choose good when this man had no knowledge of good and evil? That would be like a teacher testing a pre-schooler on calculus. You make your god sound like a complete idiot.

Since Yahweh set Adam up, that renders what Jesus did of no import. Kind of like a doctor who gives you something to make you sick and then expects you to feel grateful when he gives you a cure.  Complete and utter idiocy.

(April 16, 2015 at 11:37 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(April 16, 2015 at 11:30 pm)Kitan Wrote: Your apparent error is in the comparison.  

A teacher does not state, "Don't touch that book over there" and then watches to either pass or fail the student on whether or not the book was touched.

Also, why would an omniscient god need to test anyone? 

He doesn't, not for Himself, the test and their results are for us, same with teachers testing student, they do not need the test, the student does.

GC

Huh? For us? What then were we supposed to gain from said test? Remember, Adam did not have a "sin nature" when he sinned and we wouldn't either if Yahweh had not "tested" Adam when he knew what the outcome would be.  So what was the test about? So God could show us his mercy?  In other words, the ends justifies the means.

Per your previous post, I graduated from Biola University, a 4 year Christian university where I studied under prominent Bible professors and theologians. I attended Bible teaching churches and am quite knowledgeable of the scriptures. I don't say this because I think it will mean anything to you. I know it will not, but just to let you and other readers know your assumption that I got my knowledge from Google is just that, an assumption that lowers your credibility.

I pointed out that Adam's behavior was child-like. The Bible may not say Adam was quote-unquote child-like, but it does show us his child-like behavior. That's all I said.  How clever of you to sidestep my point.

I repeat, nothing in Adams's world had ever died, so he had no real concept of death. To not hold an omnipotent, omniscient god responsible for his actions, while holding man who, in comparison,  knows nothing and can do less, responsible for things outside our control is sheer nonsense. But it is what the church and the Bible teaches.

I think if you don't give someone a concept of right and wrong, and then give them a command that requires a concept of right and wrong, you're asking for trouble! 

(April 17, 2015 at 4:06 am)robvalue Wrote: Thank you, yes I can see that being a possible message.

Indeed, who knows what the authors intended the characters to come off as? Maybe they thought it was hilarious to write an obviously evil character who keeps saying "I am good" all the time.

Reminds me of 'Mars Attacks'.

"We come in peace." ZAP!

My oh My, the God of Heaven can do no right.
Of course A&E had an awareness of death and right and wrong at their creation, they had a language placed in them and a whole realm of knowledge in place too, otherwise they would be totally dysfunctional.
Animals have knowledge in them intrinsically from birth.
It is no great feat for God to do the same for Adam.

You think you would fare better than Adam?
Nobody has so far.  Except the God Man Jesus, and we aint Him.

Actually I do not recall a biblical doctrine of "Original sin" as if it is some albatross hanging around our necks.
It does say, "In Adam all die but it also says in Christ all are made alive".
When the truck is barreling down the road at you, why not jump into a place of safety?
Why is that so hard?  
The devil excels at telling people's minds how unfair God is.
How about considering the source of that thought?

It seems to me, most of the time we think God is as stupid as ourselves.
It is time to step out of the devil's sandbox and start thinking intelligently.

(April 17, 2015 at 4:02 am)Rhythm Wrote: Sexual identity, the coming into age or coming into knowledge that sets one apart or at odds with ones parents and alters that relationship.  That which expels you from the  garden of your youth - provided by your father, that which expels you from innocence - that which makes you culpable?  There's an amusing rabbinical opinion that the knowledge gained was, in fact, knowledge of the law.  Before they possessed this knowledge they could not offend god, could not do wrong.  There is also a strong current of god or divine forces as capricious, callous, or cruel..why assume that the authors didn't intend this to be so?  Life can be cruel, callous....it can feel like the nameless, infinitely vast forces surrounding you are decidedly inhuman.

Excellent points. Of course, if we interpret the Fall of Man metaphorically, we must also interpret the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus metaphorically, which can be done, since everything the church teaches about Jesus can be directly traced to astrology.

As for the intentions of the authors, it's probable that we are looking at two different philosophies.  Chapter one tells us that Elohim created everything and saved man for his grand finale, but in chapter two, where we find this Fall of Man story, man is created first, "before any tree was planted." Perhaps this difference in creation accounts reflects the shift in pre and post exhileJewish theology, which can only be possible if we look at it metaphorically .

(April 17, 2015 at 9:27 am)professor Wrote: My oh My, the God of Heaven can do no right.
Of course A&E had an awareness of death and right and wrong at their creation, they had a language placed in them and a whole realm of knowledge in place too, otherwise they would be totally dysfunctional.
Animals have knowledge in them intrinsically from birth.
It is no great feat for God to do the same for Adam.

You think you would fare better than Adam?
Nobody has so far.  Except the God Man Jesus, and we aint Him.

Actually I do not recall a biblical doctrine of "Original sin" as if it is some albatross hanging around our necks.
It does say, "In Adam all die but it also says in Christ all are made alive".
When the truck is barreling down the road at you, why not jump into a place of safety?
Why is that so hard?  
The devil excels at telling people's minds how unfair God is.
How about considering the source of that thought?

It seems to me, most of the time we think God is as stupid as ourselves.
It is time to step out of the devil's sandbox and start thinking intelligently.

Genesis 3:22-23 Wrote:And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

The word "now" indicates that this is something new—something that wasn't so before but is so now. I did not write this book. It's not me you are disagreeing with nor is it me that you are accusing of stupidity.

Perhaps this is just an assumption, but the term in the text above, "Knowing" has the connotation of intimate familiarity-
like when Adam "Knew" his wife.
Prior to that experience he knew ABOUT the topic some.

I was just over at Dragtimes.com looking at the track times of the newer cars and the power they produce now is amazing.
I know about the Mustangs (for example) but I have not experienced one.
That is kind of how I look at A&E's test.

(April 16, 2015 at 11:40 pm)Kitan Wrote:

(April 16, 2015 at 11:37 pm)Godschild Wrote: He doesn't, not for Himself, the test and their results are for us, same with teachers testing student, they do not need the test, the student does.

GC

A teacher shows the test result in order for the student to know whether or not he needs improvement.  I have received no test results from your imaginary friend.  

Could it be He hasn't found it necessary to test one who will never choose to follow Him.

GC

Do you think you have a full understanding of mustangs now that you have second hand knowledge of it? I would assume not. However if we're supposed to take this story literally, we're supposed to believe A&E have a full understanding of good and evil, and what death is, before eating the fruit, despite only having second hand knowledge at best.