"I often cite the fact of the spread of Islam for being the driving force behind the resurgence of Christianity in Europe; it was a strong unifier."

I agree with this. I can see it being that many Christians saw Islam as a threat. The Muslim world was actually (relatively) ahead of Europe on scientific thinking and technological advancement too. It wasn't really until Western Europe became stupidly rich and powerful off the back of colonising the Americas, that Christendom overtook the Islamic caliphate as the major power.

I do think there's an element of an elitist class of clergymen who just loved the power religion gave them too. The Middle Ages were supersticious times, but I still think they knew exactly what they were doing and how to control the masses. I'd accept that Christianity had benevolent beginnings in Europe, but it quickly became about power once people realised how useful it was.

You all make very strong points. Perhaps the world would not be that different than the one we currently live in. However, I do still like to entertain the idea that the world may have been better due to the lack of the Crusades and all that other nonsense that caused a lot of unrest in those days (mentioned earlier by Iroscato).

Whether or not that would have directly affected the present is something that can really only be guessed at.

(April 27, 2015 at 8:49 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote: "I often cite the fact of the spread of Islam for being the driving force behind the resurgence of Christianity in Europe; it was a strong unifier."

I agree with this. I can see it being that many Christians saw Islam as a threat. The Muslim world was actually (relatively) ahead of Europe on scientific thinking and technological advancement too. It wasn't really until Western Europe became stupidly rich and powerful off the back of colonising the Americas, that Christendom overtook the Islamic caliphate as the major power.

I do think there's an element of an elitist class of clergymen who just loved the power religion gave them too. The Middle Ages were supersticious times, but I still think they knew exactly what they were doing and how to control the masses. I'd accept that Christianity had benevolent beginnings in Europe, but it quickly became about power once people realised how useful it was.

It was good until it became the state religion of the Roman Empire.



Weren't the Crusades more retribution for the loss of territory than anything else?

Alternate history is a fun game to play.  "What would have happened, if....."

Saw a great article on "What would have happened if Pickett's Charge succeeded?"  The author thought everything would have worked out just fine and there would have been no animosity between North and South and slavery would have vanished by itself with no Jim Crowism in the south and everything would be hunky-dory.

Reality is that if the North had to sue for peace in 1863 there would have been another war within 10-20 years as they battled over western expansion.

Very true, Min. I enjoy thinking of the different routes that history could have taken, but there is no way of finding out what would have actually happened.

I simply thought this would be a fun question to ask.

Netflix had a mockumetary of what if the South had won the Civil War and how America would have been shaped. There was a lot of bigoted advertisements in the program to show how the South would have acted had it won, though it turned out those racists advertisements actually existed in the United States and the whole program was a parody of American racism. People will be people.

Sadly true, Polecat.

Had Napoleon won at Waterloo in 1815 all it would have assured was that there would have been a campaign in 1816.  The Allies would not stop and Napoleon had no choice but to resist.

What if is always a two edged sword.

The Middle Ages suffered from the power vacuum left by the Roman Empire resulting in a decline education and technological advancement.   The question is how much of that decline was due to the fall of Rome and the resulting chaos and how much of it was due to Catholicism and Islam.   Both religions preserved the skill of writing as did Judaism.  But all three religions discouraged inquiry, not to mention creating a non-economic reason to fight one another.

Frankly, I think that in the absence of Christianity, all Europe would have become Islamic, which might have kept us in the Middle  Ages much longer.  So perhaps better with Christianity and worse with monotheism generally.

If there was just paganism following Rome's fall, we might have gotten the Renaissance hundreds of years earlier, or the lack of common ground might have delayed a couple hundred years.  You got me.

Quote:Frankly, I think that in the absence of Christianity, all Europe would have become Islamic, which might have kept us in the Middle  Ages much longer.

Charles Martel and the Franks resisted the Moors without any particular input from the church.  Even after Tours, Martel continued fighting against Moorish expansion from the Pyrenees.
It was more or less left to his grandson, Charlemagne, to kiss the pope's ass.

If it wasn't Christianity, it would have been something else... if it's not God that people fight over, it's Mammon.