Religion in the Middle Ages

[Minimalist]

God is a handy excuse, though.

[Jericho]

An excuse that has been used by many people for a variety of stupid reasons throughout the centuries.

[The Grand Nudger]

-Most- of the reason we even make assumptions as to how "bad" it was, relative to christian rule, is that early christians -tell us- that it was just fuckin horrible before they came along.

They would say that...though, wouldn't they. Written history was pretty much taken up by the christian apparatus when that ball was dropped. We ought to know better, by now, than to buy anything they write down in their books. The descriptions of these pagan others and the terrible histories of the areas all magically coalescing into a place of peace and prosperity under priests were utter horseshit. Christendom was plainly detrimental, people got their shit together -in spite of that-...though, like people do (had themselves a green revolution - keep that in mind the next time you hear people arguing over whether or not we even -need- one..this amusingly, explaining a bit about medeival resurgence of pagan traditions/folklore/superstition that didn't seem to be about the faiths they were drawn from as origin so much as monks descriptions -of them-....christians or christianized folks making shit up on what little they had). Long story short, the dark ages (nor the period of time directly before) weren't so bad......except for all that nasty christianity shit that was going around.....

[Regina]

I guess it's irony that we can look back now in hindsight, and see that people were probably happier and (relatively) more peaceful in the Pagan societies the Christians branded as "savage".

I know which kind of society I'd rather have lived in.

[Minimalist]

No doubt about that Yolo. Give me the society that can make the plumbing work and is tolerant. They can keep their fucking god.

[Jericho]

I can agree there as well. I feel as though life in a Pagan society wouldn't be too bad. Hell, let me go to ancient Scandinavia while we're at it. I'm always down for a good story about Thor.

[Anomalocaris]

What if is always a two edged sword.

The Middle Ages suffered from the power vacuum left by the Roman Empire resulting in a decline education and technological advancement.   The question is how much of that decline was due to the fall of Rome and the resulting chaos and how much of it was due to Catholicism and Islam.   Both religions preserved the skill of writing as did Judaism.  But all three religions discouraged inquiry, not to mention creating a non-economic reason to fight one another.

Frankly, I think that in the absence of Christianity, all Europe would have become Islamic, which might have kept us in the Middle  Ages much longer.  So perhaps better with Christianity and worse with monotheism generally.

If there was just paganism following Rome's fall, we might have gotten the Renaissance hundreds of years earlier, or the lack of common ground might have delayed a couple hundred years.  You got me.

1. I think Islam can be regarded as something of a copycat religion, an effort by backwards desert dwellers on the fringe of civilized world to recreate the advantages conferred by being the master of a dominating world spanning cult, just like Romans and their Christianity.   I think it is highly doubtful Islam would have arisen had the roman world not turned christain.   So if the collapsing late Roman Empire didn't bequeath Christianity to the succeeding dark ages and Middle Ages, there wouldn't have been Islam and an Islamic invasion.

2. Let's say somehow Islam arose despite the fact fall of Roman Empire left a pagan west, and Islam successfully conquered Europe.   Would that lengthen the dark ages and delay Renaissance?  I very highly doubt it. The initial Islamic conquest was anti-intellectual, but the 3 succeeding centuries was a brilliant golden age of civil and intellectual progress in the Muslim world.  Muslim world was cosmopolitan, progressive and learned.   It was not until the crusades and Mongol conquest that put an end to Islamic gold age.   So it seems to me had Islam conquerors Western Europe, rather than imposing or lengthening the dark ages, it would almost certainly have quickly ended the dark ages in Europe,  and possibly have also hastened some equivalent of Renaissance by a couple of centuries.

[Regina]

If there was just paganism following Rome's fall, we might have gotten the Renaissance hundreds of years earlier, or the lack of common ground might have delayed a couple hundred years.  You got me.

I Respectfully disagree on this. A lot of the Pagan cultures of Europe (only excluding the Greeks, the early Romans and possibly the Vikings) were too conservative and tribal in nature to usher in a renaissance. What you had in Europe before the Romans was somewhat comparable to pre-Columbian America; illiterate or semi-literate tribal societies, with limited agriculture. It's just not the right social or political conditions for an age of enlightenment and learning.

I can't say whether it's the Romans, Christianity, or both combined, but Europe would still have been a political and cultural backwater by the Middle Ages if there were no Romans or Christianity. I think so anyway.

[thesummerqueen]

I guess it's irony that we can look back now in hindsight, and see that people were probably happier and (relatively) more peaceful in the Pagan societies the Christians branded as "savage".

I know which kind of society I'd rather have lived in.

Only if that pagan society had the benefit of free trade and education. The backwater ones weren't any more or less civilized.

[Anomalocaris]

I guess it's irony that we can look back now in hindsight, and see that people were probably happier and (relatively) more peaceful in the Pagan societies the Christians branded as "savage".

I know which kind of society I'd rather have lived in.

Only if that pagan society had the benefit of free trade and education. The backwater ones weren't any more or less civilized.

Or if the pagan society enjoyed greater sexual equality, sexual freedom, intellectual tolerance, and greater freedom from morbid fear of sin as distinct from enlighten concern for the collective good.        While backwaters are by definition not over-civilized, people of different backwaters are not all equally unhappy.     In fact one hallmark of backwater Christianity is a morbid fear that some people somewhere maybe less repressed, and therefore happier, than Christians, so the Christians must invent hell to douse any hint of happiness.