(April 27, 2015 at 3:16 pm)Lek Wrote:

(April 27, 2015 at 1:26 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: ermm, what if that gun is held to your child's head instead?

Did you ever try to find a logical explanation before jumping to the "supernatural" conclusion?

 
My intent is that I wouldn't in that case.  I guess I really don't know until it happens.  

I've heard just about every logical explanation against there being a God there is since I joined this forum.  My reasons from observing the natural world seem logical to me.  I have a hard time accepting that the natural world, or what makes up the natural world, has always existed.  I also cannot accept that the natural world created itself.  God seems logical to me.

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(April 27, 2015 at 2:36 pm)Iroscato Wrote: Wow dude, seriously? Why would your life be worth throwing away for the sake of giving the Old Guy a thumbs-up? I'm sure he would forgive you once your time really did come given the circumstances, if he's as loving and fluffy as you say (hint; he isn't).

Jesus died for me, so I'm willing to do the same in return.

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(April 27, 2015 at 2:39 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: Not to be too doubtful or anything, but y'know, I could bet good money you'd say anything with a gun to your head, like most people would

Countless christians have died in terrible ways rather than deny their faith.

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(April 27, 2015 at 2:16 pm)Alex K Wrote: As if I had needed a reminder why religious faith is so insanely dangerous.

Is there anything important enough for you to die for?

Yes, absolutely, although it's hard to predict what one would do in extreme situations. The point is that you are preparing to die not only for unevidenced beliefs, but also under the condition that you are not really going to die, also unevidenced. That's the same rationale every odd suicide bomber uses. You're just a hair's breadth away from that.

(April 27, 2015 at 3:28 pm)Alex K Wrote: Yes, absolutely, although it's hard to predict what one would do in extreme situations. The point is that you are preparing to die not only for unevidenced beliefs,  but also under the condition that you are not really going to die, also unevidenced. That's the same rationale every odd suicide bomber uses. You're just a hair's breadth away from that.

You're saying that I have beliefs with no supporting evidence, but I've given you my evidence. I'm not like a suicide bomber in that I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. I'm not even trying to die. The instance which we are discussing would be if someone was trying to kill me.

(April 27, 2015 at 3:40 pm)Lek Wrote:

(April 27, 2015 at 3:28 pm)Alex K Wrote: Yes, absolutely, although it's hard to predict what one would do in extreme situations. The point is that you are preparing to die not only for unevidenced beliefs,  but also under the condition that you are not really going to die, also unevidenced. That's the same rationale every odd suicide bomber uses. You're just a hair's breadth away from that.

You're saying that I have beliefs with no supporting evidence, but I've given you my evidence.  I'm not like a suicide bomber in that I'm not trying to hurt anyone else.  I'm not even trying to die.  The instance which we are discussing would be if someone was trying to kill me.

You might get a sign from God tomorrow telling you to kill some abortion doctors... in light of the standards you have applied in the past (i.e. what you let count as good evidence), it seems very plausible that you might be led down a dangerous path by equally weak evidence. Having low standards of evidence is dangerous because of that.

1. A tree
2. The Quran says it's written by God
3. Muslim

(April 27, 2015 at 1:04 pm)Lek Wrote:

(April 27, 2015 at 12:54 pm)Alex K Wrote: Come on, you can allow yourself a little bit of pragmatism in dangerous situations! Even Peter was forgiven after he had denied Jesus

I am using pragmatism.  I get killed in the short term, but I'll be rewarded in the long term.  According to tradition, Peter was also crucified for his faith.

 This is pretty common thinking among Christians. Dying for Jesus is romanticized as something more than being a waste of life. In the bible, it is a sin to deny god so Lek, according to his beliefs, would end up in hell for saving his life.

Lek, I like you and I hope that if you have that choice that you suddenly stop believing.

I suspect most people who profess such a belief would save their skin by instinct when it came to the crunch.

(April 27, 2015 at 3:41 pm)Alex K Wrote:

(April 27, 2015 at 3:40 pm)Lek Wrote: You're saying that I have beliefs with no supporting evidence, but I've given you my evidence.  I'm not like a suicide bomber in that I'm not trying to hurt anyone else.  I'm not even trying to die.  The instance which we are discussing would be if someone was trying to kill me.

You might get a sign from God tomorrow telling you to kill some abortion doctors... in light of the standards you have applied in the past (i.e. what you let count as good evidence), it seems very plausible that you might be led down a dangerous path by equally weak evidence. Having low standards of evidence is dangerous because of that.

This reminds me of a discussion I had with a married couple who were quite religious.  The husband said that if he heard the voice of God, and it told him to kill his children, he would obey.  His wife was less than pleased.  I sometimes wonder if I caused that couple to split up, though I have not kept in touch with them and don't know if they are still together or not.

Holy shit monkeys. That is scary stuff.

It's a problem! Religious folk can't address the question without either surrendering their humanity and blindly obeying, or standing up to their ultimate lord and master.

I would hope that the point at which your master tells you to kill your children, they stop being your master. To his credit, Huggy said he would refuse. Other theists have refused to answer as far as I know.

But blimey, just the voice of God?! It could have been a drunk outside!

It is the story of Abraham and Isaac.  In the story, being willing to kill your child, just because God tells you to do so, is considered to be a good thing.  One either accepts such stories or one does not.  Every Christian, every Jew, and every Muslim, should be willing to do that, as it is part of their heritage.  It is only by rejecting their own sacred scripture that one can consistently refuse to kill one's children when commanded by God to do so.  All of the Christians, Jews, and Muslims who would refuse to kill their children, whenever God tells them to do so, are rejecting the clear message of text sacred to them, and without which, their religions are unsupported and unworthy of belief.

Yep. Excuses, excuses, excuses.

Come on over lads, the grass really is greener. And you don't have to apologise for this shite.

http://youtu.be/OYvcc8ui3CM