I am not calling out AlphaMale. He asked me to provide some bible verses that prove something that I alluded to on another thread but doing so would have derailed that thread. 

Many Christians when asked why there is evil in the world, respond that god allowed us free will in order  for us to freely decide to love him. Because humans have free will, evil things happen in the world as a result of human actions. God is not, according to them, responsible for human actions. This means that babies are raped because god wants love.

If someone does not accept Jesus, they go to hell according to some Christians. 

Alpha male has asked me to prove in the bible what may Christians have been saying so that is the reason for this thread. It would derail the thread if I responded with so many bible verses on it. Basically I am trying to use the bible to prove it says what most Christians claim it does.

First, hell and the fact that god sends people to hell. This is the NIV version of the bible

Quote:Revelation Chapter 20 

12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.



14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, it is god that puts people into hell.


The next verses are about god wanting love.

Quote:Deuteronomy 30

The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 

Also from Deuteronomy 30

Quote:15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Even in the Old Testament, god wanted love and obedience  in exchange for blessings. The New Testament offers the same things in return for eternal life.

Quote:Matthew 22:37–39


37Jesus replied, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and most important commandment. 39And the second is like it. ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Here are New Testament verses about being part of a 'fallen world"

Quote:Romans 8

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

I could keep going but I need Alpha Male to respond so I know which verses to use. 

If you are a theist reading these verses do you believe in a fallen world? Why do you believe there is evil in the world? If you believe that human free will is the cause of evil, then why are humans given free will? If we are given free will  in order to chose to love god, how does that not translate into babies being raped so god can be loved? If you don't believe that evil is caused by your god wanting to be loved then please explain your alternate view.


It seems to me that Christians want both a god that is  all powerful but who also isn't responsible for the cruelty that happens in humans' lives. In order to lessen their deity's responsibility for evil, they turn him into the character Jigsaw from Saw who claimed that he didn't kill anyone, he just created horrible tests for them to pass

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I also wanted to add, that I have to run and do something but I will check back later in the day. Honestly, I am not ignoring any answers.

(May 1, 2015 at 8:52 am)Nope Wrote: I am not calling out AlphaMale. He asked me to provide some bible verses that prove something that I alluded to on another thread but doing so would have derailed that thread. 

Many Christians when asked why there is evil in the world, respond that god allowed us free will in order  for us to freely decide to love him. Because humans have free will, evil things happen in the world as a result of human actions. God is not, according to them, responsible for human actions. This means that babies are raped because god wants love.

If someone does not accept Jesus, they go to hell according to some Christians. 

Alpha male has asked me to prove in the bible what may Christians have been saying so that is the reason for this thread. It would derail the thread if I responded with so many bible verses on it. Basically I am trying to use the bible to prove it says what most Christians claim it does.

In the other thread, I had suggested that someone read the Bible. You said that you had read it, and proposed your interpretation of its message. What's with all the talk of other Christians?

Also, with this opening, and the title of the thread, you seem to be trying to shift the discussion from your first claim to a general discussion of the problem of evil. We can do that in another thread if you like.

It seems you've got a bit of a bait and switch going.

Quote:First, hell and the fact that god sends people to hell. This is the NIV version of the bible

Yes, I agree that hell exists and god sends people there. However, note the basis of their condemnation:

Rev 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Your own passage says that people are judged according to what they have done, not according to whether they loved god or not.

Note further that there is a set of books recording what people have done; and another book, which is the book of life. The first books represent justice and judgment. The second book represents grace and mercy.

Quote:The next verses are about god wanting love.

I agree that God wants love.

Quote:Even in the Old Testament, god wanted love and obedience  in exchange for blessings.

As I noted previously, the promises regarding the law, both rewards and punishment, were all earthly in nature.

Quote:If you are a theist reading these verses do you believe in a fallen world? Why do you believe there is evil in the world? If you believe that human free will is the cause of evil, then why are humans given free will? If we are given free will  in order to chose to love god, how does that not translate into babies being raped so god can be loved? If you don't believe that evil is caused by your god wanting to be loved then please explain your alternate view.

Again, feel free to start a POE/POS thread after this one is done.

Quote:It seems to me that Christians want both a god that is  all powerful but who also isn't responsible for the cruelty that happens in humans' lives. In order to lessen their deity's responsibility for evil, they turn him into the character Jigsaw from Saw who claimed that he didn't kill anyone, he just created horrible tests for them to pass.

And another shift from your interpretation of the Bible to other Christians.

Quote:I also wanted to add, that I have to run and do something but I will check back later in the day. Honestly, I am not ignoring any answers.

No rush. The debate has been going on for two thousand years. A few more hours or days won't hurt!

In summary:

- you presented a passage which plainly says that people are judged for what they've done

- you tried to shift from the Bible to the beliefs of other Christians. This was only partial, as you did include Bible passages.

- you tried to shift from the original topic, i.e. the basis of god's judgment, to yet another POE thread

(May 1, 2015 at 8:52 am)Nope Wrote: I am not calling out AlphaMale. He asked me to provide some bible verses that prove something that I alluded to on another thread but doing so would have derailed that thread. 

Many Christians when asked why there is evil in the world, respond that god allowed us free will in order  for us to freely decide to love him. Because humans have free will, evil things happen in the world as a result of human actions. God is not, according to them, responsible for human actions. This means that babies are raped because god wants love.

If someone does not accept Jesus, they go to hell according to some Christians. 

Alpha male has asked me to prove in the bible what may Christians have been saying so that is the reason for this thread. It would derail the thread if I responded with so many bible verses on it. Basically I am trying to use the bible to prove it says what most Christians claim it does.

First, hell and the fact that god sends people to hell. This is the NIV version of the bible

Quote:Revelation Chapter 20 

12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.



14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, it is god that puts people into hell.


The next verses are about god wanting love.

Quote:Deuteronomy 30

The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 

Also from Deuteronomy 30

Quote:15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Even in the Old Testament, god wanted love and obedience  in exchange for blessings. The New Testament offers the same things in return for eternal life.

Quote:Matthew 22:37–39


37Jesus replied, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and most important commandment. 39And the second is like it. ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Here are New Testament verses about being part of a 'fallen world"

Quote:Romans 8

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

I could keep going but I need Alpha Male to respond so I know which verses to use. 

If you are a theist reading these verses do you believe in a fallen world? Why do you believe there is evil in the world? If you believe that human free will is the cause of evil, then why are humans given free will? If we are given free will  in order to chose to love god, how does that not translate into babies being raped so god can be loved? If you don't believe that evil is caused by your god wanting to be loved then please explain your alternate view.


It seems to me that Christians want both a god that is  all powerful but who also isn't responsible for the cruelty that happens in humans' lives. In order to lessen their deity's responsibility for evil, they turn him into the character Jigsaw from Saw who claimed that he didn't kill anyone, he just created horrible tests for them to pass

---

I also wanted to add, that I have to run and do something but I will check back later in the day. Honestly, I am not ignoring any answers.

You've made a number of mistakes in your OP, so I'd like to address them here.

First, God has no wants or needs. He is perfect in and of Himself.
Second, God is infinite, and it is not possible for finite man to love an infinite God that would address His infinite need even if He had one. (see #1 above).
Third, God allows us free will so that WE may love Him which is the highest act WE may perform. IOW, God created us and gave us free will for OUR benefit, not His.

Now, if babies are raped as a consequence of God's decision to give us free will, the responsibility for the rape still falls on the person who chooses to commit that act because other options were available to that person. No one is forced to commit rape in the normal course of daily life.

Ahh...Theodicy again. The thing that will never go away.

(May 14, 2015 at 5:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Now, if babies are raped as a consequence of God's decision to give us free will, the responsibility for the rape still falls on the person who chooses to commit that act because other options were available to that person.

Other options were available to an omniscient God besides creating someone He KNEW was going to do evil.  

(May 14, 2015 at 5:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: ...
First, God has no wants or needs. He is perfect in and of Himself.

...

If that were true, God would never have created anything.  He would not create if he did not want to create.  Indeed, he would not do anything, if he did not want to do anything.

Therefore, since God (as described in the Bible) does various things, God does want things.  And, as you rightly point out, that means he must not be perfect, or he would not have created anything.

(May 14, 2015 at 6:40 pm)AFTT47 Wrote:

(May 14, 2015 at 5:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Now, if babies are raped as a consequence of God's decision to give us free will, the responsibility for the rape still falls on the person who chooses to commit that act because other options were available to that person.

Other options were available to an omniscient God besides creating someone He KNEW was going to do evil.  

I don't know about that.  "God" comes across as something of a putz in that fucking bible.  He's always surprised or saddened when his plans don't work out right.  Shouldn't he know in advance that he fucked up?  For that matter, why wouldn't he do something different?

Why is god such a shlemiel?

(May 14, 2015 at 6:09 pm)Hatshepsut Wrote: Ahh...Theodicy again. The thing that will never go away.  

Not before the assertion that evil and suffering disprove God's existence disappears, at least.

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(May 14, 2015 at 6:40 pm)AFTT47 Wrote:

(May 14, 2015 at 5:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Now, if babies are raped as a consequence of God's decision to give us free will, the responsibility for the rape still falls on the person who chooses to commit that act because other options were available to that person.

Other options were available to an omniscient God besides creating someone He KNEW was going to do evil.  

If God never created anyone who did not do evil or commit some offense against others or Him, He never would have created anyone at all.

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(May 14, 2015 at 6:52 pm)Pyrrho Wrote:

(May 14, 2015 at 5:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: ...
First, God has no wants or needs. He is perfect in and of Himself.

...

If that were true, God would never have created anything.  He would not create if he did not want to create.  Indeed, he would not do anything, if he did not want to do anything.

Therefore, since God (as described in the Bible) does various things, God does want things.  And, as you rightly point out, that means he must not be perfect, or he would not have created anything.

I'm using "want" here in the sense that God is lacking or wanting for something. He is not.

In the sense that He wills things to happen, sure...He "wants" them to happen for our benefit. But not because he is making up for something missing in His own life

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(May 14, 2015 at 6:59 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(May 14, 2015 at 6:40 pm)AFTT47 Wrote: Other options were available to an omniscient God besides creating someone He KNEW was going to do evil.  

I don't know about that.  "God" comes across as something of a putz in that fucking bible.  He's always surprised or saddened when his plans don't work out right.  Shouldn't he know in advance that he fucked up?  For that matter, why wouldn't he do something different?

Why is god such a shlemiel?

Since you seem familiar with the text, why not quote the passage that seems to represent your view best?

Then we will have something a bit more specific to discuss.

(May 14, 2015 at 5:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: You've made a number of mistakes in your OP, so I'd like to address them here.

First, God has no wants or needs. He is perfect in and of Himself.

Well, here's a passage in Deuteronomy, 

"2 And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul," Deuteronomy 10:12

Here we are told god asked something of someone. Now, tell me, why would someone ask, that is, require something of someone, if they possessed the resources to provide for their own needs or desires in the first place?

(May 14, 2015 at 5:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Second, God is infinite, and it is not possible for finite man to love an infinite God that would address His infinite need even if He had one. (see #1 above).

If God is infinite, and he didn't need a creator, why do we?
And why do we need infinite love if he doesn't? (Didn't you say god has no wants or needs?)

(May 14, 2015 at 5:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Third, God allows us free will so that WE may love Him which is the highest act WE may perform. IOW, God created us and gave us free will for OUR benefit, not His.


Now, if babies are raped as a consequence of God's decision to give us free will, the responsibility for the rape still falls on the person who chooses to commit that act because other options were available to that person. No one is forced to commit rape in the normal course of daily life.

If god gave us the free will to rape, murder, and commit "sins", then he is guilty of being an accessory to these crimes. He is the creator of humankind, therefore he is responsible for us, and he allowed humankind to become corrupt as he watched us descend into "evil". He is, at the very least, an accomplice. 

(May 14, 2015 at 6:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

---

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(May 14, 2015 at 6:59 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I don't know about that.  "God" comes across as something of a putz in that fucking bible.  He's always surprised or saddened when his plans don't work out right.  Shouldn't he know in advance that he fucked up?  For that matter, why wouldn't he do something different?

Why is god such a shlemiel?

Since you seem familiar with the text, why not quote the passage that seems to represent your view best?

Then we will have something a bit more specific to discuss.

Easy enough.  A minor example of the problem.

Quote:10 Then came the word of the Lord unto Samuel, saying,

11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night.

  1 Sam 15

How come your 'god' didn't know that Saul would disobey...disobey btw in not murdering everyone that fucking god wanted murdered.

Shouldn't an omniscient god have a clue?