Kinda reckon if you're cursed...standards don't mean much beyond that point..lol.  We weren't cursed because we failed to meet a moral or ethical standard, of course...we were cursed because we did what a powerful wizard told us not to do...and that's how wizards roll.  

(May 26, 2015 at 7:29 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: If there is no God, then there is no hell; and if there is no hell, then there are no ultimate, eternal repercussions, good or bad, for how we live out our mortal lives. Of course, atheists insist that people should be "good without God."

But why? If God does not exist, why be good?

If there is a god, why be good?

If there is a being that has absolute power, one can easily see the motive to be obedient.  But why be good?

Do you seriously believe that might makes right?  Do you really believe that you should just go along with the biggest bully there is?  Is that all there is to your idea of goodness?


This reminds me of the chorus of the song, "Santa Claus is Coming to Town":

Quote:He sees you when you're sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake

It is claimed that one should be "good for goodness sake," but the reality is, the song is telling people that Santa is watching and will reward or punish based on what one does, so one had better do as Santa wants.  That is not being good for the sake of goodness, that is doing things for the reward and for avoiding punishment.

It is not about good and bad, it is about avoiding punishment and receiving rewards.  In other words, doing what one is told, or else.

That is not morality.

I believe that good and evil, along with all other actions associated with intelligent beings such as animals, are driven only by animal instinct, and that "murder is wrong" is not valid in the same sense as "2 plus 2 equals 4".

However, even though the universe doesn't care if we all turn into genocidal psychopaths overnight, if we did, we would all suffer for it. The same applies to things like lying, cheating, bigotry, and being ignorant. We have the ability to embrace our moral nature to make our own and each other's lives happier, and that is essentially what morality is to me.

(June 2, 2015 at 11:50 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(June 2, 2015 at 11:49 am)Rhythm Wrote: Lets not set some impossible and ridiculous standard and then bitch about the failures of the human race to meet said impossible and ridiculous standard..eh?

Kinda sounds like the whole original sin thing~

I agree.  This is why I'm not worried about being good.  The impetus for everyone to behave is your guys' thing.  I'm interested in behaving in my own self-interest.  Which can overlap with 'being good', but is a very different motivation.

Well, morality is just a thing that every human has and it doesn't require any religion and definitely shouldn't be taught to people by saying to them that they will suffer eternaly if they commit a crime (two wrongs don't make a right). To be honest, if you need a 2000 year old book to tell you what is wrong and what is right then that is slightly concerning.

(June 2, 2015 at 2:39 pm)wallym Wrote:

(June 2, 2015 at 11:50 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Kinda sounds like the whole original sin thing~

I agree.  This is why I'm not worried about being good.  The impetus for everyone to behave is your guys' thing.  I'm interested in behaving in my own self-interest.  Which can overlap with 'being good', but is a very different motivation.

Good luck with that..when chasing your self interest ends up working against your own best interests,  don't worry, we'll all still be here to bail your ass out of the jam - like people do...when people lose their shit looking out for numero uno.

(June 2, 2015 at 6:26 am)robvalue Wrote: I'm listening to the latest Atheist Experience, and Tracey gives a short talk at the start about morality which I think is very relevant to this discussion. As usual she's kicking names and taking ass.

http://www.atheist-experience.com/archiv...-05-24.mp3

The calls are really interesting too.

---

If you go to 47:45 you will hear one of the sickest things ever from a Christian. He wants people who commit morality to be lashed or put to death. It shows what biblical "morality" can do to a person. I'm not saying this is representative, but I am saying the bible was involved in this person's decision to think this way. He also eventually says that he is fine with slavery. His mind has been totally rotted.

All this sick guy has to do to justify his opinion is to quote the bible. That is my problem. It says these things. It's just that nicer Christians find excuses as to why those rules don't apply anymore (God only used to be immoral) or never applied (denying the very things it says on the pages). Good for you though nice Christians, keep ignoring this immoral horseshit. Ignore as much as possible. Whatever it takes to say that this stuff is wrong, keep doing it. I want to live with nice people. There's a moral compass inside you which tells you these things are wrong. That makes you better and more moral than your God.

Rob-

I didn't listen, but based upon your description, I would have no problem condemning the guy, either.

You do realize that the majority of Christians are as put off by this type of thing or the nuts at Westboro Baptist as you are, right?

You DO understand that this is not orthodox Christianity, right?

(June 2, 2015 at 2:39 pm)wallym Wrote:

(June 2, 2015 at 11:50 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Kinda sounds like the whole original sin thing~

I agree.  This is why I'm not worried about being good.  The impetus for everyone to behave is your guys' thing.  I'm interested in behaving in my own self-interest.  Which can overlap with 'being good', but is a very different motivation.

Well, credit where it's due, you're honest about being a self-centered bastard
I can't really say that about many such types I know...

(May 29, 2015 at 8:55 pm)Jenny A Wrote: If you are really interested in learning rather than merely putting your fingers in your ears and saying "nah nah nah" I suggest the following:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/you...e-empathic

http://cogprints.org/3392/1/lovempat.htm

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB125382470366238705

More is just a google search away.

I have just printed out the first and third to read in bed tonight. Thanks!

(June 2, 2015 at 6:05 pm)Iroscato Wrote:

(June 2, 2015 at 2:39 pm)wallym Wrote: I agree this is why I'm not worried about being good.  The impetus for everyone to behave is your guys' thing.  I'm interested in behaving in my own self-interest.  Which can overlap with 'being good', but is a very different motivation.

Well, credit where it's due, you're honest about being a self-centered bastard
I can't really say that about many such types I know...

Show me one christian or muslim god who wouldn't respect someone who's up himself?