(June 3, 2015 at 2:07 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Then why are you wasting time on us unreachable, willfully blind, those-who-actually-know-there's-a-god crowd of heathens?

He thinks he can save us, even though said words in the bible are complete ies to begin with.

(June 3, 2015 at 2:02 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 3, 2015 at 12:02 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Because God is immaterial, and science deals only with the physical, material world.

Or to put it another way, science only deals with things that really exist and god is non-existent.

(June 3, 2015 at 11:33 am)robvalue Wrote: Well, I appreciate your honesty!

You seem fully aware that you probably would behave differently if you did have empathy. Does that give you any pause for thought? Do you see the lack of empathy as... I'm not sure what the word is... a justification, or an excuse maybe, to act differently to how you would if you had it? It's a genuine question, I'm interested. I'm not judging you. I'm just noting your brain set up isn't the norm, and you are aware of this.

It's hard to get my head around really, because I can't get in the state of mind where I have no empathy, my imagination adds it on even when I've just assumed I don't have it anymore.

Empathy, to me, is a tricky thing.  When you think about it, it's really a different way to make everything about yourself.   

"I feel bad that you got hit by a car, because I would hate it if I got hit by a car."   

That's why all the hokey sayings are "Treat others like you want to be treated", "Love thy neighbor as thyself" or "Walk a mile in their shoes."  The key component of all of these is making it about you.  That's why it's not "Treat others how they want to be treated."  

So what I've done, is shift that to the more appropriate form.  "Treat others how they want to be treated."  But if I don't care how some guy in India is treated, there's no reason to follow the rule.  "Yeah, but how would you feel if you get hit by a car!?"  Terrible.  But I didn't get hit by a car.  Some person I don't care about got hit by a car.  So they feel terrible, and I don't feel a thing.

To answer the question, without really answering it, I was empathetic.  Just like I was religious.  In that I was operating with the belief that I believed things I didn't really believe.  In the same way in the end I said "Do I really believe in God?" and the answer was "Not really."  The question of "Do I really care about a homeless man in Kentucky?" The answer was not really.  And if I'd been a bit more proactive, honest, and open-minded in my thinking, I could have come to those conclusions a lot earlier based on my behaviors which were pretty clear evidence I didn't really believe either.

Also, to clarify, I do have empathy.  I'm heavily invested in the happiness of my kid.  I doubt I could shake that if I wanted to.  And I don't really want to.  I'm not looking to overthrow all my biological and social impulses.  I tend to care about most people I am generally fond of in my vicinity.  The further from my circle of existence, or the more negative my relationship with them is, the less I care about them.  

It is an interesting question of whether my brain works differently or not.  I'm not convinced it does.  But it's not clear to me yet.

An aside, I play poker pretty seriously.  And one of the interesting phenomenons is that some people who know how to play generically well have fits when it comes to playing with people who are bad.  The reason being that they can't stop projecting their view of the game onto others.  So when Bob the idiot raises, they are only able to consider what they would raise with if they were in Bob the idiots position.  One of my strengths, is that I have always been very good at empathizing in the sense of looking at something from someone else's perspective.  It's why I'm a lot more 'understanding' when it comes to religious folks as well, I suspect.  I get why they are religious.  And If I don't 'get' someone, I'm good at figuring it out.  The two may be related.  My ability to remove myself from the equation when looking at others and why I don't associate what happens to them to what happens to me.

(June 3, 2015 at 2:02 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Were you abused as a child?

Yes.

Quote:Man...my parents never threatened me with "horrible threats of hell". Instead, they explained why God had sent his Son Jesus to die on the cross so that none who believe in Him might perish but have everlasting life.

Why are you assuming that your particular religious upbringing is the only form of religious upbringing? Or that the fact that your parents didn't see fit to either tell you about the "fiery lake of burning sulfur" written about in the bible, or allow you to read those passages in the bible, for that matter, means those passages don't exist?

Quote:What kind of a warped caricature do you envision when you think of a group of Christians getting together on a Sunday morning for services? Are people there out of fear, out of obedience, or out of love? 

You should talk to my wife sometime: raised by a devoutly christian family, she grew up believing in literal demons that sometimes stalked the earth, from the fire and brimstone hell that I mentioned earlier. Now, I'm not saying that's every christian family's experience, but by the same token, I expect you not to assert that it's nobody's experience either.

Quote:No. And this is why most of what is argued in this forum fails miserably. Science can say nothing about God.

You still haven't justified this assertion, you're just using it as a means to keep god safe from falsifiability. That might make you feel better, but I'm not obligated to accept it until you've justified it.

Quote:Because God is immaterial, and science deals only with the physical, material world.

Why? Because you said so?

Quote:Because there is a huge difference between the two (and deep down, you know it). But hey, this forum exists for the entertainment of its members...not their enlightenment. I get that now.

Don't presume to tell me what I know, Randy.

(June 3, 2015 at 11:37 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Can NORAD track Santa's sleigh every Christmas eve?

Yes, actually, they've been doing it for the last sixty years.

(June 3, 2015 at 2:02 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: And this is why most of what is argued in this forum fails miserably. Science can say nothing about God.

Because God is immaterial, and science deals only with the physical, material world.

Does this god interact with the Universe in any way, however small? Answering prayers, performing miracles, comtrolling the weather?

Wallym: thanks for your reply, that was very interesting. I'm sorry if I misrepresented you in my narrative.

(June 3, 2015 at 3:03 pm)wallym Wrote: Empathy, to me, is a tricky thing.  When you think about it, it's really a different way to make everything about yourself.   

"I feel bad that you got hit by a car, because I would hate it if I got hit by a car."

Now you're getting it!

Of course empathy is about oneself. We have a built in, evolved reward system that when we do something altruistic for another (because we know how we would feel in same circumstance), we get an emotional reward. Our brains produce a soup of chemicals that make us feel good as a reward for doing good.

If there wasn't this built in reward system, we would not help others, and our ancestors would not have survived for us to be here talking about this. This reward system is one of our most important survival strategies.  

Some people have a broken reward system. We label them as "sociopaths". 

Quote:That's why all the hokey sayings are "Treat others like you want to be treated", "Love thy neighbor as thyself" or "Walk a mile in their shoes."  The key component of all of these is making it about you.  That's why it's not "Treat others how they want to be treated."

Well,  "Treat others like you want to be treated" actually works pretty good, since we all have more or less the same bodies, physiology, brains, etc. But I agree, "Treat others how they want to be treated" is probably a better way to put it.  

Quote:So what I've done, is shift that to the more appropriate form.  "Treat others how they want to be treated."  But if I don't care how some guy in India is treated, there's no reason to follow the rule.  "Yeah, but how would you feel if you get hit by a car!?"  Terrible.  But I didn't get hit by a car.  Some person I don't care about got hit by a car.  So they feel terrible, and I don't feel a thing.

But I, and many others I know, do care about how others are treated in India. It is part of the social contract I follow, to help others when I can. 

Yes, it is true, that right now, somewhere in India, there is probably someone trapped in a building that is on fire, and there is nothing I can do about it, nor do I feel visceral empathy. But if someone down the street from me was trapped in a burning building, you can bet that I would be feeling empathy that would motivate me to try to get them out. 

 Wouldn't you?

Quote:To answer the question, without really answering it, I was empathetic.  Just like I was religious.  In that I was operating with the belief that I believed things I didn't really believe.  In the same way in the end I said "Do I really believe in God?" and the answer was "Not really."  The question of "Do I really care about a homeless man in Kentucky?" The answer was not really.  And if I'd been a bit more proactive, honest, and open-minded in my thinking, I could have come to those conclusions a lot earlier based on my behaviors which were pretty clear evidence I didn't really believe either.

Also, to clarify, I do have empathy.  I'm heavily invested in the happiness of my kid.  I doubt I could shake that if I wanted to.  And I don't really want to.  I'm not looking to overthrow all my biological and social impulses.  I tend to care about most people I am generally fond of in my vicinity.  The further from my circle of existence, or the more negative my relationship with them is, the less I care about them.

This is not unusual. Remember, the empathy reward system evolved when our ancestors lived in groups of only about 50-150, where everyone knew each other, and many of them were relatives. So, the fact that you show strong empathy toward those in your vicinity, and less the further from your circle they get, is consistent with evolution.

But it seems, that many of us are able to extend our circle to encompass most of humanity, instead of just those in our circle. 

Quote:It is an interesting question of whether my brain works differently or not.  I'm not convinced it does.  But it's not clear to me yet.

I'm sure your brain is within the normal range concerning this. 

(June 3, 2015 at 2:02 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Were you abused as a child? Man...my parents never threatened me with "horrible threats of hell". Instead, they explained why God had sent his Son Jesus to die on the cross so that none who believe in Him might perish but have everlasting life.

What kind of a warped caricature do you envision when you think of a group of Christians getting together on a Sunday morning for services? Are people there out of fear, out of obedience, or out of love?  

Lol. Your naetivity is almost adorable. My parents often threatened me with horrible threats of hell among other more immediate and terriifying things. I don't need to envision a warped caricature of Sunday morning services. I can't tell you why the others went but I had no choice. If was warped for sure but those are real memories. You must be completely blind to scoff at the idea of such things. 

(June 2, 2015 at 2:39 pm)wallym Wrote:

(June 2, 2015 at 11:50 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Kinda sounds like the whole original sin thing~

I agree.  This is why I'm not worried about being good.  The impetus for everyone to behave is your guys' thing.  I'm interested in behaving in my own self-interest.  Which can overlap with 'being good', but is a very different motivation.

I hope that works out for you.

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(June 3, 2015 at 11:37 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Grown-ups know that they are Santa. Kids who are older know that their parents are Santa.

[...]

How does this work with Christianity?

Generally speaking, adults have left their security blankets behind, while children cling to them in fear.

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(June 3, 2015 at 2:02 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Because God is immaterial, and science deals only with the physical, material world.

How can an immaterial being exist in a material world?

And more to the point, how can you, or any other human (including the ones who wrote the Bible) know anything about the immaterial?

(June 3, 2015 at 4:13 pm)Losty Wrote:

(June 3, 2015 at 2:02 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: What kind of a warped caricature do you envision when you think of a group of Christians getting together on a Sunday morning for services? Are people there out of fear, out of obedience, or out of love?  

Lol. Your naetivity is almost adorable. My parents often threatened me with horrible threats of hell among other more immediate and terriifying things. I don't need to envision a warped caricature of Sunday morning services. I can't tell you why the others went but I had no choice. If was warped for sure but those are real memories. You must be completely blind to scoff at the idea of such things. 

Some blindness is willful.