(June 3, 2015 at 4:13 pm)Losty Wrote:

(June 3, 2015 at 2:02 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Were you abused as a child? Man...my parents never threatened me with "horrible threats of hell". Instead, they explained why God had sent his Son Jesus to die on the cross so that none who believe in Him might perish but have everlasting life.

What kind of a warped caricature do you envision when you think of a group of Christians getting together on a Sunday morning for services? Are people there out of fear, out of obedience, or out of love?  

Lol. Your naetivity is almost adorable. My parents often threatened me with horrible threats of hell among other more immediate and terriifying things. I don't need to envision a warped caricature of Sunday morning services. I can't tell you why the others went but I had no choice. If was warped for sure but those are real memories. You must be completely blind to scoff at the idea of such things. 

It is really a bait and switch thing he has going on.  He is trying to tell you that God is love or some other such bullshit, pretending that there is no mention of hell in the Bible, or in Catholic theology.

Teaching children about hell is threatening them with it.  It is telling one's children if they screw things up, that is where they will end up.  Pretending otherwise is just dishonest.

"I would not for my life destroy one star of human hope, but I want it so that when a poor woman rocks the cradle and sings a lullaby to the dimpled darling, she will not be compelled to believe that ninety-nine chances in a hundred she is raising kindling wood for hell."
-- Robert Green Ingersoll, "How To Be Saved" (1880)

Why does a Christian feel the need to be good when they can just do what they want during the week and pray for forgiveness and have their slate wiped clean?

It's because we're a social species and most of us have an inherent understanding that harming the community can harm us.

Why not be good?

Why shouldn't we run around murdering and raping each other? Because those people are like you and me, they are literally more like you and me than any other species or object in the entire cosmos. We suffer, so we understand what it would be to make them suffer. I don't need my empathy dictated by a book (Religious or Legal) to make moral judgements for myself.

Also, marshmallows exist in this universe! How can you possibly stay angry for long?!

(June 3, 2015 at 11:41 pm)Ashground Wrote: Why not be good?

Why shouldn't we run around murdering and raping each other? Because those people are like you and me, they are literally more like you and me than any other species or object in the entire cosmos. We suffer, so we understand what it would be to make them suffer. I don't need my empathy dictated by a book (Religious or Legal) to make moral judgements for myself.

Also, marshmallows exist in this universe! How can you possibly stay angry for long?!

And sex, don't forget the sex

(June 3, 2015 at 11:49 pm)Losty Wrote: And sex, don't forget the sex

Nobody ever forgets sex when you're around.

(June 3, 2015 at 3:46 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(June 3, 2015 at 3:03 pm)wallym Wrote: Empathy, to me, is a tricky thing.  When you think about it, it's really a different way to make everything about yourself.   

"I feel bad that you got hit by a car, because I would hate it if I got hit by a car."

Now you're getting it!

Of course empathy is about oneself. We have a built in, evolved reward system that when we do something altruistic for another (because we know how we would feel in same circumstance), we get an emotional reward. Our brains produce a soup of chemicals that make us feel good as a reward for doing good.

If there wasn't this built in reward system, we would not help others, and our ancestors would not have survived for us to be here talking about this. This reward system is one of our most important survival strategies.  

Some people have a broken reward system. We label them as "sociopaths". 

As rational beings, we can rework stupid evolutionary traits, to the point of erasing them altogether.  And we can definitely override stupid social traits.

If this was 1950, we'd probably be smoking a cigarette to fit in, reaping that sweet sweet emotional reward of social conformity.  Then if we found out that Cigs caused Cancer, some would say "Fuck that!" and quit.  And for some the option to feel an emotional reward for smoking cigarettes would no longer be available, because the knowledge that it was terrible and killing you would erase it. (this ignores addiction)

We've seen it with Atheists.  For the 20th century everyone was all "God God God!"  And people mostly went along.  But some said "This is bullshit to a degree I'm not getting any emotional reward from belonging with these people." and left the church.

And with me.  People are saying "Charity makes you great!  Help poor starving kids!  Help Darfur!  Help Haiti!"  And you give your $20 bucks, and feel like a great person with all your warm fuzzy emotional rewards.  But I realized that 'You're the same species, so you care about them' is as flimsy as it gets.  And once I realized caring about them was irrational, I no longer got the 'emotional rewards.'  There's no going back. 

To me, it sounds like you know you are programmed to believe the, what I consider, irrational idea that 'I care about 7 billion people because we are the same species.'  But knowing that you are programmed to believe something that's pretty absurd is worth it for the emotional reward?  

Believing in something irrational for some emotional rewards is the cornerstone of something we rail against here daily.  

(June 3, 2015 at 11:49 pm)Losty Wrote:

(June 3, 2015 at 11:41 pm)Ashground Wrote: Why not be good?

Why shouldn't we run around murdering and raping each other? Because those people are like you and me, they are literally more like you and me than any other species or object in the entire cosmos. We suffer, so we understand what it would be to make them suffer. I don't need my empathy dictated by a book (Religious or Legal) to make moral judgements for myself.

Also, marshmallows exist in this universe! How can you possibly stay angry for long?!

And sex, don't forget the sex

I didn't forget but I'm a good boy and good boys don't talk about that on the internet!

(June 3, 2015 at 11:58 pm)wallym Wrote: Believing in something irrational for some emotional rewards is the cornerstone of something we rail against here daily.  

Not at all. You see, not all beliefs are irrational. And you really shouldn't be railing against it, anyway -- it's not in your self interest to advise your victims of your intentions.

(June 3, 2015 at 5:18 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(June 2, 2015 at 2:39 pm)wallym Wrote: I agree.  This is why I'm not worried about being good.  The impetus for everyone to behave is your guys' thing.  I'm interested in behaving in my own self-interest.  Which can overlap with 'being good', but is a very different motivation.

I hope that works out for you.

The idea that it is a choice is sort of an interesting issue.  To behave any other way would be pretending to be someone I'm not.  So I hope it works out for me too, because it's not like I can fix it by pretending there is a God, or pretending that I give a shit about earthquake victims.  I'm too self-aware for that level of make-believe.

From reading this thread, it sounds like a lot of you feel you have no choice but to care.  That the feelings are inevitable.  It's odd that the response to me not caring always has negative connotations.  Your empathizing is involuntary product of evolution, but my not empathizing is something I'm choosing to do wrong?  There is something that doesn't add up there.

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(June 4, 2015 at 12:11 am)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(June 3, 2015 at 11:58 pm)wallym Wrote: Believing in something irrational for some emotional rewards is the cornerstone of something we rail against here daily.  

Not at all.  You see, not all beliefs are irrational. And you really shouldn't be railing against it, anyway -- it's not in your self interest to advise your victims of your intentions.

Tough to have a circle jerk without a bunch of jerks.