Wallym, what of those of us who do good locally, while empathising with those who aren't local? You seem to think "help" is only needed other than where you are locally. What about those who do good, not because it makes them feel good, but out of a sense of empathy for their fellow man? Do you really think that's only out of a sense of "no choice but to care"? Especially when there are people like you in the world who have made the choice not to care?

Take me, for example: I empathise with those abroad who are less fortunate; I even give money when I can to causes I think are worthwhile, and I have thought about and taken steps toward going to certain places abroad to help. Also, I volunteer locally to help victims of sexual assault and domestic violence, along with some other, fluffier, kinds of volunteer work. I will admit, I get satisfaction and good feeling about helping people, but when I'm helping someone who is starving or has been beaten or raped, the negative affect on my psyche more often outweighs the good feelings I have. I have made a choice to care, obviously, if there are seemingly normal people in the world like you who simply don't.

I don't think I'd go so far as to say we have no choice but to care. To borrow from the great PhilHellenes from youtube (wonder what happened to him, by the way?):

I try to be a decent person because there is someone who watches over me, who knows everything about me, my every thought and desire. He will be with me my entire life and judges everything I do; ultimately I am accountable to him for my behaviour and seek his approval while fearing his judgemental gaze.

He's in the mirror.

Beautiful, Stim

Thanks . I prophesy the subtlety will be lost on the ones who would most benefit from it, though.

You're absolutely spot on. I am my own harshest critic. All we can be sure about is everyone has this one life, so I make it my job to improve it where I can for whoever I can. Of course I could "do more", that is always the case for everyone. But it is a big factor in how I live my life and what decisions I make.

It is a little bit of a chicken and egg I guess. Helping people makes me feel good. Very good in fact. But it seems to me this is a side effect and a bonus, rather than my actual motivation. I would still help people even if it made me feel bad to do so, because I've come to a rational decision to do that action. I won't repeat my sob story, but you guys know by now about my life and how this is very much the case. So even the evolution argument doesn't work when choices get to this stage.

And really, assuming we do have free will (not trying go get into that discussion here!) we can choose to ignore this action/reward system anyway, or bypass it. We can decide not to help people, and even harm them, even if it makes us feel bad. Eventually, we adjust to our actions I think and it becomes easier and easier to maintain.

It sounds like Wally is admitting to being a sociopath.  I'm not saying that to be mean, wally, but actually to just point this out.  If he doesn't have (much) empathy, he may be right, it may not be a choice he's making.  Sociopaths, (not psychopaths), aren't entirely rare, and one of the key things is that they lack empathy.  Sounds like he never had it, and is just rationalizing WHY it's better not to happen...another common trait of sociopaths.

He probably can't help the way he thinks and feels any more than we can.  I'm extremely empathetic myself, but I don't chose it, I am just built that way.  As long as he's not out hurting people, he's being honest with himself and with us.  I'll be honest, I'd never (knowingly) be friends with someone like that because they will use people for their own ends without regard for them as a friend.  But he's right....he didn't chose to lack empathy anymore than we chose to have it.

Idon't even know my point here, I clearly agreeing that empathy is a generally usefull social tool or else it wouldn't be a common trait.  I feel bad for people without it, but I suppose they disdain people like me, and see us a perfect victims.  I guess I'm just saying, he is what he is...accept it, and don't friend him on FB? Sorry Wally.  This is a weird way of sticking up for you, I don't imagine you appreciate it either, lol, or that I'll win friends on the other side with this argument, but I do see it as truth, so I just felt the need to share I guess.
 
See...I married someone like you wally (I didn't know it at the time), a bit anyway, so I do understand, just a bit.

I thought I remembered him saying exactly that some time ago, which is why I phrased my questions like I did. Maybe I misremembered and if so I apologise. But I agree it seems like a strong correlation at least. And indeed, we're not in control of how we are made.

I wonder though, even for someone with no empathy (not saying this is the case for wallym), if they make rational decisions to help people even though they personally get no feedback from their brain which acts as a reward... would the system adapt so eventually they could feel good about it? I may be totally off there, this is not my specialist subject, I'm just swinging in the dark with a blindfold on with my eyes poked out.

(June 4, 2015 at 2:53 am)robvalue Wrote: I thought I remembered him saying exactly that some time ago, which is why I phrased my questions like I did. Maybe I misremembered and if so I apologise. But I agree it seems like a strong correlation at least. And indeed, we're not in control of how we are made.

I wonder though, even for someone with no empathy (not saying this is the case for wallym), if they make rational decisions to help people even though they personally get no feedback from their brain which acts as a reward... would the system adapt so eventually they could feel good about it? I may be totally off there, this is not my specialist subject, I'm just swinging in the dark with a blindfold on with my eyes poked out.

I have no idea, really, I'm no specialist either, I'm also just making guesses.  From my personal experience though, I don't think you can teach empathy (or that it can be learned), which I think is basically what you are asking?  Maybe to a 0-5 years old you can change how the neurons work thre, but I don't think so in a fully grown adult.  But again, I don't know....??

If someone who lacks empathy makes a rational decision to help someone, they do so with another reward/goal in mind.  It might even be just to "blend in" with us sheep.

I'm also not saying Wally is like this, or thinks of us as sheep, again, this is from my experience with someone else.

I'm not talking about empathy exactly, although... maybe I am, I'm not sure. I mean the good feeling you get when you help someone. Is that directly linked to empathy? I guess it would make sense that it is. I'm wondering if the "good feeling" could develop, even if a general sense of empathy does not.

(June 4, 2015 at 12:12 am)wallym Wrote: From reading this thread, it sounds like a lot of you feel you have no choice but to care.  That the feelings are inevitable.

That's not the case at all, for me. I certainly choose to care -- I choose to be involved in the rest of the world. And my choice is selfish, too: it's because I have a son, and I want him to have as good a world as possible.


 

(June 4, 2015 at 12:12 am)wallym Wrote: It's odd that the response to me not caring always has negative connotations.  Your empathizing is involuntary product of evolution, but my not empathizing is something I'm choosing to do wrong?  There is something that doesn't add up there.

It's probably because you don't understand that when you tell someone you'd just as soon stick them in the back for an advantage (and that's what you're doing here), you shouldn't be surprised when people express dismay, and keep you at arm's length. You're certainly one person from this forum I would never want to meet in real life, because knowing what I know now, not only would I not trust you, I would positively distrust you. I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment either.

Tell me -- do you mention this amoralist approach to life to the people in your everyday, real-world life? Do you tell them that they're only as good as their utility to you? How do they respond to it?

How's that working out for you?

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(June 4, 2015 at 12:12 am)wallym Wrote: Tough to have a circle jerk without a bunch of jerks.

No, I'm serious. Rationally speaking, it is not advisable to inform the people you may well wish to fuck over that you'd do exactly that. Their guard will be heightened, and their suspicions of you will grow.

See? I'm helpful like that.