Now to my well intended liberal friends, before you read this, please don't use "not all religious people are racist", no one is claiming that our should claim that. The following is about the evolutionary psychology behind what religion is as a concept. It is an excuse to group as a way of creating social order. The problem is in doing such it sets up tribalism and in group vs out group. Religion is the cause of racism.

I think one thing completely ignored by humans in acts like that of Roof, is the claim that it had nothing to do with religion. When you look at what Roof soaked up online that lead him to this horrible act, one would be stupid to claim that the KKK was not founded as a religious organization. Racism is a direct result of religion, regardless of any empathy liberals of faith or atheists want to claim can be separated. Religion itself, regardless of label, in our species history sets up tribalism. It is why white Tea Party Baptists, and black southern Baptists, can share the same label, but be radically different polar opposites on politics and economics. 

And even outside this country, I was called "racist" by a Hindu from India after I told them their religion was not special. That was even after I pointed out atheists groups on facebook started by citizens of India who were born in Hindu families but simply left the religion. Even with Palestine and Israel, religion produces the racism BOTH can and do rightfully point to about the other. It is the same after the Hebdo attacks in France, and both Jews and Muslims would be RIGHT in saying they suffer discrimination. Racism is a product of religion, and is what religion hides behind both left and right, to avoid scrutiny of religion. 

I do not say this in some sort of delusional call to force religion out of existence, as if one could on a planet of 7 billion. But a call for my fellow species, which ultimately stems from the same DNA going back far enough in evolution. To understand that the concept of religion, has to be treated for what it really is, simply a reflection of local, social norms, and should not be put on a pedestal. If there had been no god of Abraham invented, there would be no KKK. If there had been no god of Abraham invented, there would be no fighting between Sunnis and Shiites. If there had been no god of Abraham invented, there would be no fighting between Jews and Palestinians. If there had been no god of Abraham there would have been no black slavery.  If there had been no god of Abraham invented, Hitler, regardless of his personal beliefs, would not have been able to convince Germans that they were God's chosen people. 

Religion causes racism, it causes human divisions, there simply is no good way to be polite about what the history of this concept has done to our species in our history. If we bravely face this, we can and will manage our differences to a much greater civil degree.

I see where you're coming from and I don't disagree, but would it have stopped 12 million native American Indians getting slaughtered?
Did the British Empire check to see what denomination the country they were about to take over using brute force was?
Australia (Britain) did it with the aborigines, the list goes no forever.

Yes, I think the world would have a net sum in the positive without religion, but we can never breed out the egotistical selfish ape out of us... It's who we are, it's what we do.

Stipulate for the nonce that religion is the cause of racism, instead of (as seems more likely) a cause.  Would a society in which religion had never arisen be completely free of racism?  The notion seems so far-fetched as to make the original premise absurd.  Furthermore, it seems plain that tribalism antedates religion.


And, not for nothing, but the original Klan was a political organization, not a religious one.

Boru

I think it depends - You can't say religion is The cause of racism because there's very strong forms of racism not based on religion - The KKK is a Christian group, it is religious based, but some of Hitler's ideas on racial purity were based on eugenics and "scientific" racism. Some racists are religious, but there are racists who think religion is incompatible with racism, so it goes both ways. Many punk rock neo-nazi bands hate Christianity and think religion is letting the white race down. There are Christians who think Christianity calls for racism, and there are Christians who think Christianity isn't compatible with racism - Obviously, because Jesus was a Jew (if he existed) it is really complicated to argue for a racist Christianity - No Jesus wasn't white you fuckers

I think it's not so much that religion is the cause of racism so much as that religion is so often used to justify racism, not to mention sexism, homophobia, etc.  I doubt Roof is racist because he's religious.  It's just that he's used religion to feel justified in his racism.

I suspect the behavioral basis of racism predates appearence of organized religion by hundreds, if not thousands, of centuries.

(June 22, 2015 at 5:08 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Stipulate for the nonce that religion is the cause of racism, instead of (as seems more likely) a cause.  Would a society in which religion had never arisen be completely free of racism?  The notion seems so far-fetched as to make the original premise absurd.  Furthermore, it seems plain that tribalism antedates religion.


And, not for nothing, but the original Klan was a political organization, not a religious one.

Boru

^^^^^^^^Um no, does not matter how it started, that is like saying Hitler was an atheist, it still would not change that he invoked god to convince Germans they were God's chosen people. The KKK is full of deeply religious people, regardless of how you claim it started. 

When you understand evolution, you see grouping not only in humans, but in other primates as well. You will NOT get rid of our evolution, humans will always group. The point isn't to outlaw any religion, as I may have said before, but by understanding the real reasons humans do what they do, you can manage differences to a much more civil degree.

Anything can be turned into a religion, so it isn't just what we commonly call religion. Our species evolved to seek patterns, and when we think it works, regardless of any harm it may do, we seek to replicate that pattern. Economics  and politics also get treated as a religion for far too many. I even warn atheists not to assume by proxy of label that constitutes morality. "Atheist" merely means "off" or "empty" on god claims. Outside that we are diverse as well in politics and economic views. Ultimately neither labels or books are indicators of human morality. Our species ability to be cruel or compassionate is in our evolution.

Religion causes racism regardless of pointing out those in religion who are not racists. It is a concept that sets up in group vs out group.

(June 22, 2015 at 10:21 am)Chuck Wrote: I suspect the behavioral basis of racism predates appearence of organized religion by hundreds,  if not thousands, of centuries.

I agree. The seed for racism is probably genetic and served a purpose in a primitive setting. Those who were wary of others outside the group were less likely to be slaughtered by them. Wariness of those with different appearance was selected for. Just as the fight or flight response doesn't serve us well in a modern setting, wariness of outsiders doesn't serve us well today. We overcome it with intellect - at least some of us do.

Uh, no.  The innate tendency to suspect and blame out groups, combined with the innate tendency to rationalize other innate behavior tendencies, is the basis of racism, not religion.   What religion does is to give some additional way to rationalize innate tendencies.

For that matter, the acceptance of reality of evolution also gave some additional ways to rationalize innate tendencies.

It all started when Moon-Watcher and his clan quarreled with The Others over a water hole. Then there was this black monolith, and someone got the idea of using a bone as a weapon.