Roof, religion is the cause of racism. OP/ED

[Brian37]

I think the key to fostering a more civil species, is to, from a young age, not only educate, but teach good communication skills and good critical thinking skills.

[The Grand Nudger]

At best I'd call religion a force multiplier when it comes to racism, rather than a causative agent.  Racists will be racists, but racists with divine license are racists with purpose, racists with a calling...........and -that's- a bit different than Billy Bob on his porch stewing in his own hate juice.

[Anomalocaris]

Religions with a broad audience tends to prioritize its own spread, that actually tends to limits how much racism broad based religions on average tend to promote in the long run. Too much racism and it closes off some of its own potential markets.

[Brian37]

At best I'd call religion a force multiplier when it comes to racism, rather than a causative agent.  Racists will be racists, but racists with divine license are racists with purpose, racists with a calling...........and -that's- a bit different than Billy Bob on his porch stewing in his own hate juice.

That is the danger in thinking like this. It is most certainly possible to be bigoted without believing in a god. But you simply cant ignore that there are far too many humans that open up, read words from a holy book, and come to the conclusion that they have the right to harm others based upon the entitlement the book conveys. You don't have to have everyone being holy book bigots, you simply have to have just enough. 

So when, for example Muslims say the majority are "peaceful", that is a bad argument. Even if they prove that, the fact is that region of the world is dominated by theocratic thinking. It does not have to be a majority that rules social attitudes, you can simply have a big enough minority controlling the narrative.

This is where my fellow liberals unintentionally give cover to fundies. They have the right empathy in wanting to defend multiculturalism, but instead insist on PC tactics that are exactly what fundementalists want, no criticism no scrutiny. 

It far to often allows liberals both theist and atheist to ignore that both left and right of all religions are still using the same labels and holy books. It is more important to point this out. That takes away the pedestal from religion and allows it to be scrutinized.

[The Grand Nudger]

You think that people open up holy books and -then- come to a conclusion...whereas I think that people open up holy books having already arrived upon one.  I suppose that's the diff. Where I come from, racists are already racists before they ever get to sunday school, for example.

[nihilistcat]

Disagree (really seems like a strained argument). Granted, religiosity plays on similar aspects of human nature (e.g. tribalism), but tribalism itself (not its symptoms) is the problem (although, there's many facets to racism in America). In the context of the type of racism we see here in the US, race based tribalism is a phenomena that flows from material circumstances. The pursuit of profits created the incentives underlying slavery, and while slavery eventually became untenable, things like Jim Crow cropped up in part due to fear of retribution (on the part of southern whites) and in part due to the fact that the establishment needs to keep poor people divided in order to sustain itself. So reactionary culture, capitalism, etc, seem more explanatory than religiosity.

We can say that religion promotes tribalism (as does nationalism and ideology and ethnicity and many other things), and so maybe there's a weak relationship between modern religiosity and racism, but frankly I don't see much utility in trying to pick a fight here, when the data is so inconclusive and ambiguous. I think we need to focus on the material circumstances that characterize institutional racism (since that's what actually harms people and feeds the misperceptions [that incidentally ignore context] which, in a vicious cycle, just feeds more racism).

[The Grand Nudger]

Start with institutionally sanctioned poverty.  Wasn't so long ago that italians and irish weren't "white"......and it had nothing to do with the religion of the whites who held such views, as those italians and irish very often held the same religious views.  They were an exploited group of impoverished outsiders, racism was both a contributing factor -to- and a tool for the continuation -of- their exploitation and impoverishment.....and to us, in context, that makes little to no sense..........cause italains and irish are super white....aren't they?

Arbitrary with regards to religion -or even race- it would seem........but again, regardless of all of that..if you've already reached a conclusion and then, for whatever reason, you come to think "got mitt uns"......misery follows even more swiftly upon the heels of predation. Somebody scream rahowa for me...if you please?

[Dystopia]

A curious story - My uncle (my dad's brother) went to travel abroad in Mozambique (Africa) and it was supposedly a temporary measure to make some side money but he loved it so much he married a black woman and had kids with her - I remember my grandmother cried about it all the time and while she still considered him her son it was never the same again. Once he came to Portugal and brought his kids - Back in the day I was about four years old and it was a time when seeing a black person, specially in the north, was quite rare - I confess I probably didn't know about the existence of black people, I thought everybody was supposed to be like me and my family (white) - I went to my grandmother's house with my family (at the time only dad and mum) to have lunch and I played with my black cousin - It was amusing, and because I was a jerk every now and then I locked him in an old storage granny had - He started yelling saying "let me out let me out" and I said something like "Shut up nigg**!" (The Portuguese word to offend black people is not nigg** but I'm translating it so that people get the point) - Lesson to learn - I was never taught to be racist against anyone and I didn't even know about the existence of other races, but I reacted with distrust and mockery towards my black cousin - It was not learned behaviour, I simply felt like behaving that way; and I needn't say that if the kid was white I wouldn't have called him a "cracker".

Humans have a tendency to pick on different specimens - Whether it is because they're fat, short, darker skinned, disabled, etc, is a matter of context. Of course religion justifies racism every now and then but racists will exist regardless of religious beliefs. In many ways I still believe Nazism and fascism (please bear in mind fascism is broader and nazism is merely a sub-sect of fascism) are partially if not fully anti-religion/anti-Christian - The fact Hitler had the help of Muslim divisions or Mussolini promoted Catholicism is irrelevant - Ideologies that require a huge commitment to something like the State, the leader or the nation's values from an abstract conception are incompatible with religion because you can't worship and dedicate yourself to two ideas at the same time - Nazism, in particular, is incompatible with Christianity because of the whole "help the poor, weak, disabled, etc" and the "god created every man equally" motto churches now promote. I don't care that the Catholic church supported Hitler, they didn't like jews for many reasons, but to argue nazism is pro-religion is naive - It is only pro-religion when it benefits the State and the bloodline purity of the aryan race. I don't see why I should actually believe Hitler was a devout Christian Catholic - He said many things to manipulate people, some of them true, but most were not - Why should I believe that he was a Catholic anymore than I believe Jews are truly an evil race?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Um no, does not matter how it started

My apologies, I thought that was the point you were making.

that is like saying Hitler was an atheist, it still would not change that he invoked god to convince Germans they were God's chosen people. The KKK is full of deeply religious people, regardless of how you claim it started. 

I think you've got this back-to-front.  I don't deny that there are deeply religious people in the KKK, but what of it?  You made the claim that religion is the cause of racism.  The inescapable consequence would be that no non-religious people are racist, which is farcical.  By the by, I'm not making any sort of a 'claim' at all.  Feel free to look it up - the Klan was originally a political organization, religion was a secondary (and very minor) factor.


 

When you understand evolution, you see grouping not only in humans, but in other primates as well. You will NOT get rid of our evolution, humans will always group.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.  You said earlier that religion is THE cause of racism in part because it creates groups/tribalism.  Now, you're making the point that non-human primates group as well.  I've only met one orangutan, and no chimpanzees, gorillas or bonobos, but I think it's a fair bet than no non-human primates are religious.  Since chimps (at least) have been observed to behave very badly towards out-groups of other chimps, and do so without 'benefit' of religion, aren't you crossing yourself up, here?

The point isn't to outlaw any religion, as I may have said before, but by understanding the real reasons humans do what they do, you can manage differences to a much more civil degree.

But, based on your original premise ['Religion is the cause of racism.'], I fail to see how you can 'manage differences' without eliminating religion.

 

Anything can be turned into a religion, so it isn't just what we commonly call religion. Our species evolved to seek patterns, and when we think it works, regardless of any harm it may do, we seek to replicate that pattern. Economics  and politics also get treated as a religion for far too many. I even warn atheists not to assume by proxy of label that constitutes morality. "Atheist" merely means "off" or "empty" on god claims. Outside that we are diverse as well in politics and economic views. Ultimately neither labels or books are indicators of human morality. Our species ability to be cruel or compassionate is in our evolution.

I decline to respond to this bit, as it seems really, REALLY far off-point.


 

Religion causes racism regardless of pointing out those in religion who are not racists. It is a concept that sets up in group vs out group.

That's a self-defeating statement.  If religion causes racism - as you claim - then every single religious person has to be a racist.  And if religion is the cause of racism, then every non-religious person has to be non-racist.  Since neither of these is the case, your premise fails.

If I've misunderstood or misrepresented what you've said, I'll be happy to have another go.  But, as it stands, I don't think your argument holds much water.

Boru

[Brian37]

Back to front, front to back, religion is still the cause. You sell a utopia and no one questions it, the followers are sure to screw someone over.

Oh and please spare me the idea that the KKK is not a religious organization. Here is a KKK member claiming they are. The irony is this dipshit wants to revise the religious bigoted history of the KKK. White Christian KKK members as a majority were lynching blacks for a long period of it's history. This  idiot is trying to put lipstick on a pig.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/21...08647.html