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Roof, religion is the cause of racism. OP/ED
#31
RE: Roof, religion is the cause of racism. OP/ED
(June 23, 2015 at 10:00 am)paulpablo Wrote:
(June 21, 2015 at 11:39 am)Brian37 Wrote: Now to my well intended liberal friends, before you read this, please don't use "not all religious people are racist", no one is claiming that our should claim that. The following is about the evolutionary psychology behind what religion is as a concept. It is an excuse to group as a way of creating social order. The problem is in doing such it sets up tribalism and in group vs out group. Religion is the cause of racism.

I think one thing completely ignored by humans in acts like that of Roof, is the claim that it had nothing to do with religion. When you look at what Roof soaked up online that lead him to this horrible act, one would be stupid to claim that the KKK was not founded as a religious organization. Racism is a direct result of religion, regardless of any empathy liberals of faith or atheists want to claim can be separated. Religion itself, regardless of label, in our species history sets up tribalism. It is why white Tea Party Baptists, and black southern Baptists, can share the same label, but be radically different polar opposites on politics and economics. 

And even outside this country, I was called "racist" by a Hindu from India after I told them their religion was not special. That was even after I pointed out atheists groups on facebook started by citizens of India who were born in Hindu families but simply left the religion. Even with Palestine and Israel, religion produces the racism BOTH can and do rightfully point to about the other. It is the same after the Hebdo attacks in France, and both Jews and Muslims would be RIGHT in saying they suffer discrimination. Racism is a product of religion, and is what religion hides behind both left and right, to avoid scrutiny of religion. 

I do not say this in some sort of delusional call to force religion out of existence, as if one could on a planet of 7 billion. But a call for my fellow species, which ultimately stems from the same DNA going back far enough in evolution. To understand that the concept of religion, has to be treated for what it really is, simply a reflection of local, social norms, and should not be put on a pedestal. If there had been no god of Abraham invented, there would be no KKK. If there had been no god of Abraham invented, there would be no fighting between Sunnis and Shiites. If there had been no god of Abraham invented, there would be no fighting between Jews and Palestinians. If there had been no god of Abraham there would have been no black slavery.  If there had been no god of Abraham invented, Hitler, regardless of his personal beliefs, would not have been able to convince Germans that they were God's chosen people. 

Religion causes racism, it causes human divisions, there simply is no good way to be polite about what the history of this concept has done to our species in our history. If we bravely face this, we can and will manage our differences to a much greater civil degree.  Although I agree, without a religion Hitler couldn't have convinced people they were god's chosen people, but he could have just manipulated them some other way.  

Racism is mainly a product of human behaviour, religion has been responsible for promoting and preventing racism depending on the circumstances.
I'd say slavery, including black slavery, would almost certainly still exist with or without an Abrahamic god. It existed in the tribes of Africa before they even knew about an Abrahamic god.
And people like Hitler have existed in countries that know nothing of any Abrahamic god.  Although I'd agree with the statement you made, Hitler couldn't have convinced people they were God's chosen people without religion, but I believe he would just manipulate people some other way.
 In any society with or without God people split into groups and try and beat each other, without an Abrahamic god these groups would most likely just have different names and different rhetoric.

No, religion IS the cause of racism because of humans refusal to see what you rightfully said "Racism is mainly a product of human behavior" I AGREE, but because humans seek patterns on superstitious grounds and form groups based on those falsehoods we cant see what is going on. We allow Santa to rule us rather than see "naughty and nice" are not a product of a cosmic fiction, but in our evolution. As long as we give cover to superstition that ignorance will produce racism.

Hitler believed that divinity gave him the right to claim that Germans were the master race and were "God's Chosen People".

If we instead view reality in natural evolutionary terms, we know that our species stems from the same past. Religion is our refusal to accept we are the same species. 

And of course humans would divide even without the Abrahamic gods, we always have. That is still not an excuse to give religion a pass. I also warn atheists not to try to set up moral code lists either. "Atheist" is not a religion right now, but even now there are groups calling themselves "atheist churches", seems harmless to those involved now, but it can most certainly be turned into a religion, I hope it never does.

Secular law covers everyone, or the idea should. Humans have rights, but claims by themselves do not deserve a pedestal. 

And to say religion does good, does not make the religion itself the cause of the good, our evolutionary empathy as a species is doing that. Our morality as a species is in our evolution, not our labels. Labels don't automatically make an individual good or bad.
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#32
RE: Roof, religion is the cause of racism. OP/ED
No because racism can be caused with no religion or god present. 
The root cause of racism cannot be religion because atheists can be racist.  Some people may genuinely believe from their observations that some races/ethnic groups are inferior to others.
Religion CAN be a cause of racism but it can be a cause of preventing racism.  For example Malcom X believed black people and white people could never live together until he saw people of all races uniting during his trip to Mecca.
This thread really does blow my mind for so many reasons.

1) I hate people using the buzzword of racist/racism to try and attack an opposing position, I've seen it in the Islamic forums where they use quotes of Darwins to try and show the idea of evolution is racist.

2) I hate it when people use Hitler in an argument about religion and try and say what they think they know Hitler believed, again this happens on religious forums and Atheist forums and it's just bullshit.
He died aged 56, it was reported he took a fuck load of drugs through at least some parts of his life and by the end was probably mentally unstable.
So when people say "Hitler believed/didn't believe...." It's bullshit, first of all you don't know what Hitler believed you can't read his mind, second of all his quotes vary from seemingly not believing in religion to believing in a divine master race, thirdly he probably changed his mind several times through his life, ESPECIALLY considering he was taking high doses of amphetamines, he probably woke up on a downer feeling like shit on the bottom of a shoe, spent the afternoon believing god was on his side followed by an evening of believing that he was god, depending on the amount of drugs administered on any given day.

3) You don't seem to have taken into consideration anything anyone has said about the fact that tribal/racist/xenophobic type behaviours most likely existed in our evolutionary past before any sort of religion began, there is actual proof that religion isn't the cause of racism because racist Atheists do exist.

4)
Quote:And to say religion does good, does not make the religion itself the cause of the good, our evolutionary empathy as a species is doing that. Our morality as a species is in our evolution, not our labels. Labels don't automatically make an individual good or bad.

I don't know how you can say this, yet still say religion is the cause of racism, I'm basically saying the exact same thing.  Religion can cause racism, but it doesn't make religion itself the cause of racism.  Our evolutionary behaviour as a species is the cause of racism, our prejudice behaviour is in our evolution.

If you were to say the human behaviour of seeing patterns that might not necessarily be there is the cause of racism then it might be a point to take into consideration and looked over, but even then I think it could be argued that there are actually many causes of racism and to put it down to having one root causes is being short sighted.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





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#33
RE: Roof, religion is the cause of racism. OP/ED
(June 25, 2015 at 10:42 pm)paulpablo Wrote: No because racism can be caused with no religion or god present. 
The root cause of racism cannot be religion because atheists can be racist.  Some people may genuinely believe from their observations that some races/ethnic groups are inferior to others.
Religion CAN be a cause of racism but it can be a cause of preventing racism.  For example Malcom X believed black people and white people could never live together until he saw people of all races uniting during his trip to Mecca.
This thread really does blow my mind for so many reasons.

1) I hate people using the buzzword of racist/racism to try and attack an opposing position, I've seen it in the Islamic forums where they use quotes of Darwins to try and show the idea of evolution is racist.

2) I hate it when people use Hitler in an argument about religion and try and say what they think they know Hitler believed, again this happens on religious forums and Atheist forums and it's just bullshit.
He died aged 56, it was reported he took a fuck load of drugs through at least some parts of his life and by the end was probably mentally unstable.
So when people say "Hitler believed/didn't believe...." It's bullshit, first of all you don't know what Hitler believed you can't read his mind, second of all his quotes vary from seemingly not believing in religion to believing in a divine master race, thirdly he probably changed his mind several times through his life, ESPECIALLY considering he was taking high doses of amphetamines, he probably woke up on a downer feeling like shit on the bottom of a shoe, spent the afternoon believing god was on his side followed by an evening of believing that he was god, depending on the amount of drugs administered on any given day.

3) You don't seem to have taken into consideration anything anyone has said about the fact that tribal/racist/xenophobic type behaviours most likely existed in our evolutionary past before any sort of religion began, there is actual proof that religion isn't the cause of racism because racist Atheists do exist.

4)
Quote:And to say religion does good, does not make the religion itself the cause of the good, our evolutionary empathy as a species is doing that. Our morality as a species is in our evolution, not our labels. Labels don't automatically make an individual good or bad.

I don't know how you can say this, yet still say religion is the cause of racism, I'm basically saying the exact same thing.  Religion can cause racism, but it doesn't make religion itself the cause of racism.  Our evolutionary behaviour as a species is the cause of racism, our prejudice behaviour is in our evolution.

If you were to say the human behaviour of seeing patterns that might not necessarily be there is the cause of racism then it might be a point to take into consideration and looked over, but even then I think it could be argued that there are actually many causes of racism and to put it down to having one root causes is being short sighted.

Will you quit accusing me of things that are not in my head.

I have already said that our behavior is in our evolution. So yes, racism CAN be caused without god involved. You keep missing my point that because of religion we cannot as a majority of our species, get to the point of recognizing that. You strip away the superstition as an excuse, you are free to recognize our natural behavior. 

I also hate "not all are" still not the point. Our species has empathy but it also has superstitious claims to justify tribalism. Challenge those superstitions, expose them as such, you tear down those walls that allow racism to fester. Religion acts as wall stopping conversations and allows for those different excuses. You want to get to the point of a natural understanding of human behavior, you have to dispel the delusion of mythological group think that religion causes.
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#34
RE: Roof, religion is the cause of racism. OP/ED
(June 26, 2015 at 9:19 am)Brian37 Wrote:
(June 25, 2015 at 10:42 pm)paulpablo Wrote: No because racism can be caused with no religion or god present. 
The root cause of racism cannot be religion because atheists can be racist.  Some people may genuinely believe from their observations that some races/ethnic groups are inferior to others.
Religion CAN be a cause of racism but it can be a cause of preventing racism.  For example Malcom X believed black people and white people could never live together until he saw people of all races uniting during his trip to Mecca.
This thread really does blow my mind for so many reasons.

1) I hate people using the buzzword of racist/racism to try and attack an opposing position, I've seen it in the Islamic forums where they use quotes of Darwins to try and show the idea of evolution is racist.

2) I hate it when people use Hitler in an argument about religion and try and say what they think they know Hitler believed, again this happens on religious forums and Atheist forums and it's just bullshit.
He died aged 56, it was reported he took a fuck load of drugs through at least some parts of his life and by the end was probably mentally unstable.
So when people say "Hitler believed/didn't believe...." It's bullshit, first of all you don't know what Hitler believed you can't read his mind, second of all his quotes vary from seemingly not believing in religion to believing in a divine master race, thirdly he probably changed his mind several times through his life, ESPECIALLY considering he was taking high doses of amphetamines, he probably woke up on a downer feeling like shit on the bottom of a shoe, spent the afternoon believing god was on his side followed by an evening of believing that he was god, depending on the amount of drugs administered on any given day.

3) You don't seem to have taken into consideration anything anyone has said about the fact that tribal/racist/xenophobic type behaviours most likely existed in our evolutionary past before any sort of religion began, there is actual proof that religion isn't the cause of racism because racist Atheists do exist.

4)

I don't know how you can say this, yet still say religion is the cause of racism, I'm basically saying the exact same thing.  Religion can cause racism, but it doesn't make religion itself the cause of racism.  Our evolutionary behaviour as a species is the cause of racism, our prejudice behaviour is in our evolution.

If you were to say the human behaviour of seeing patterns that might not necessarily be there is the cause of racism then it might be a point to take into consideration and looked over, but even then I think it could be argued that there are actually many causes of racism and to put it down to having one root causes is being short sighted.

Will you quit accusing me of things that are not in my head.

I have already said that our behavior is in our evolution. So yes, racism CAN be caused without god involved. You keep missing my point that because of religion we cannot as a majority of our species, get to the point of recognizing that. You strip away the superstition as an excuse, you are free to recognize our natural behavior. 

I also hate "not all are" still not the point. Our species has empathy but it also has superstitious claims to justify tribalism. Challenge those superstitions, expose them as such, you tear down those walls that allow racism to fester. Religion acts as wall stopping conversations and allows for those different excuses. You want to get to the point of a natural understanding of human behavior, you have to dispel the delusion of mythological group think that religion causes.

Well the title of your thread makes it look like you are saying religion is the one and only root causes of racism.

And if you are just saying that religion is one of the causes to racism it's a pretty moot point.

There are religions that encourage racial unity.

I know of very few religions that have any inherent racist beliefs, only two exceptions come to mind being the Nation of Islam and the Mormon church and even then there's probably some debate about it.

Most of the racism I come across which is the only racism I can comment on has nothing to do with superstition or religion. 

Most racism I hear about and I've personally witnessed is either just primitive violent group behaviour, gangs segregated by race attacking other races, or it's based on what a person believes is a logical observation for example a black man blaming white people for putting black people in prison or a white person believing black people commit more crime.  Additionally this ties in slightly with wrong scientific information (or at least I think it's most likely wrong) things I've heard like black people are genetically more prone to violence or white people are genetically evil.  There's no supernatural or religious belief involved, and people do talk about it and debate it.

It's very rare to see people say black people/white people are unlucky/against my religion, I would like to debate about it but I'm forbidden.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





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