Miracle

[robvalue]

The only miracle is that people still think these books are somehow insightful.

[Harris]

None of those things relate at all the topics you say they do. There's no mention of a singularity for the big bang in the Quran ergo = post hoc reasoning.

You wouldn't infer that verse specifically related to the Big Bang unless you knew about it. I mean the iron thing is great. Does the Quran discuss the atomic composition of iron, and how iron is actually formed?

Objective of Quran is to guide people to moral behaviour by discouraging arrogance and meanness rather than predicting science recipes to enhance their somatic comfort. That is the reason scientific facts in Quran become conceivable only after their discoveries. Those imperative scientific facts, which future generations will discern, manifest divine nature of Quran.

Right now, we are facing exactly this situation where no one of us can give rational explanation on “How modern scientific facts get into 7th century Quran.”

*sigh* I suspect without reading this thread that everyone else has rebutted this for the same reason. That should tell you something, but i suspect the indoctrination is too strong and you are forever lost.

Forever Lost! Where? In the realm where you live, where you (atheists) popped out from “NOWHERE,” without any “REASON” and after enjoying few infinitesimal moments then perish into “NOTHINGNESS” again without any “REASON?” Well good news is I am not part of that hopeless idealism.

“Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them).”
Al Hijr (15)
-Verse 3-

Oh well, not my life, so I don't really care. Please continue with your confirmation bias and faulty logic

Has anyone yet proved that so-called “faulty logic” to be faulty?

No one is capable to explain by any natural means how modern scientific discoveries get into 7th century Quran.

“We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Quran) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things?”
Fush Shilat (41)
-Verse 53-

Where are the rigorous discussions on numbness in burned skin after the 14th century? Can you show me rigorous discussions in the 15th century about burned skin with numbness?
I don't know that they were silent before the 14th century. I don't know that there have been rigorous discussions over numbness in burned skin since the 14th century.

You're asking for ancient medical records, not only that but ancient medical records on an obscure topic.

You're basic demands are,

Either find ancient writings about the obscure topic of numbness in burned skin, or the quran is a miracle.

If the quran mentioned some sort of new scientific discovery or technology you would have a point.

A car is a non ancient form of technology, if they found that in the quran it would be odd, surprising, worth thinking about.

Numbness in skin due to nerve damage isn't new technology, it's a sensation or lack of sensation. A symptom of 3rd degree burns.

Now I take it you admit people did suffer 3rd degree burns in ancient times, so you tell me is it likely they experienced numbness in their skin if they're was numbness?
If people in ancient times did suffer 3rd degree burns please tell me why would they not experience the symptoms of 3rd degree burns?

French barber-surgeon Ambroise Paré was the first to describe different degrees of burns in the 1500s. Guillaume Dupuytren expanded these degrees into six different severities in 1832.

The first hospital to treat burns opened in 1843 in London, England and the development of modern burn care began in the late 1800s and early 1900s. During World War I, Henry D. Dakin and Alexis Carrel developed standards for the cleaning and disinfecting of burns and wounds using sodium hypochlorite solutions, which significantly reduced mortality. In the 1940s, the importance of early excision and skin grafting was acknowledged, and around the same time, fluid resuscitation and formulas to guide it were developed. In the 1970s, researchers demonstrated the significance of the hypermetabolic state that follows large burns.

Under the heading “History”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn

Only in 1882, Magnus Blix reported that specific spots on the skin elicit sensations of either cold or heat when stimulated, and proposed that the different sensations of cool and warm are caused by stimulation of different, specific receptors in the skin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Blix

As you can see, only in 1500 people have come across the knowledge of different degrees of burn and only in 1882 they learned the reality of skin. You cannot find anything about 3rd degree burn before 1500 and about the reality of skin before 1882.

I hope you trust “Wikipedia.”

We've already been through this once before, the term "Send down" is used to describe many things and people in the quran provided by god. For example books, food, prophets. Just because one of these things happens to have at one point been in a meteorite doesn't make it a miracle.

The verse wouldn't be wrong if iron wasn't sent down in a meteorite, you would just interpret the verse differently so that sent down meant provided for. It's only in this instance you're trying to interpret sent down as meaning being sent down in a meteorite.

“…WE SENT DOWN IRON, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind…” (Quran 57:25)

Is there something missing in the verse the lack of which is leading your thoughts to a confusion?

This verse is bright like a midday sun.

WE SENT DOWN…

Question “WHAT?”
Answer “IRON.”
“WE SENT DOWN IRON”

This verse is not saying

WE SENT DOWN PROPHETS
WE SENT DOWN BOOKS
WE SENT DOWN FOOD or
WE SENT DOWN DONKEYS

Secondly, Quran is not saying that God has sent down Iron in a meteorite. Our BELOVED SCIENCE is saying that. Point of emphasis here is not how IRON CAME DOWN to earth but that IRON IS A FOREIGN ELEMENT to earth and this idea Quran has expressed without any vagueness.

Everything you say needs your own metacommentary-- haven't you noticed? I'm pretty sure you added (as one unit of creation) to make it sound more like the Big Bang.

Concoction is not my puppy. You can check verse 21:30 yourself
http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/21.htm

Abdullah Yusuf Ali
Born in 14 April 1872
Died in 10 December 1953

He began writing Translation and Commentary of the Holy Quran in 1934 and published in it in 1938
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Yusuf_Ali

Edwin Powell Hubble
Born in November 20, 1889
Died in September 28, 1953

First time in 1931, Hubble expressed his opinion on the theoretical interpretation of the redshift-distance relation in his letter to the Dutch cosmologist Willem de Sitter in which he wrote:

Mr. Humason and I are both deeply sensible of your gracious appreciation of the papers on velocities and distances of nebulae. We use the term APPARENT VELOCITIES to emphasize the empirical features of the correlation. The interpretation, we feel, should be left to you and the very few others who are competent to discuss the matter with authority.

Today, the "APPARENT VELOCITIES" in question are understood as an increase in proper distance that occurs due to the expansion of space.

At the time, the Nobel Prize in Physics did not recognize work done in astronomy. Hubble spent much of the later part of his career attempting to have astronomy considered an area of physics, instead of being its own science. He did this largely so that astronomers—including himself—could be recognized by the Nobel Prize Committee for their valuable contributions to astrophysics. This campaign was unsuccessful in Hubble's lifetime, but shortly after his death, the Nobel Prize Committee decided that astronomical work would be eligible for the physics prize. However, the prize is not one that can be awarded posthumously.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Hubble

I have quoted historical facts about Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Edwin Hubble on purpose.

Abdullah Yusuf Ali had translated the verses and added his commentary where it was necessary to convey full meaning of Arabic Text. At the time when he had begun translating Quran, he was not aware about the expanding universe or about its being (ONE UNIT OF CREATION). In other words, he was not aware of Big Bang like everyone else (including Edwin Hubble). Therefore, the meaning (ONE UNIT OF CREATION) came right out of the original Arabic text. It is not the assumption of Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

Here are few other translations, which may help to expand your vision:

Sahih International:
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE A JOINED ENTITY, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

Pickthall:
Have not those who disbelieve known that the HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE OF ONE PIECE, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

Shakir:
Do not those who disbelieve see that the HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE CLOSED UP, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?

Mohsin Khan:
Have not those who disbelieve known that the HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE JOINED TOGETHER as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

So the muslims thought the universe was big. So does my beagle. Is he a miracle-worker too?

Not Muslims and not anyone else in seventh century had, to least extent, any idea about the reality of universe.

Your miracle book forgot to mention that the Earth is also in orbit around the sun.

Quran is not a science encyclopaedia. The scientific facts mentioned in Quran are more than sufficient to manifest the miraculous nature of Quran.

wth does this even mean? Is the sun a man?

In Arabic Language, there are only two genders,

Masculine and
Feminine

There is no Neuter gender “It” in Arabic.

Generally, in place of “It,” Arabs use “He” and that is the quality of Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s translation that he retained Arabic “It i.e. He” and did not change it to English “It”

So the muslims had the ability to see thing fall, to pick things up, and to identify things as iron?

Correct!

Ooooh. . . miraculous.

No one knew, until very recent time, that Iron is a foreign element, which was not part of young earth.

Because nobody knew oceans were deep? You sure?

Before 1930s, no one knew that ocean is pitch dark at certain depth or there are deep ocean currents at different levels of depths. Both these discoveries are fairly recent.

Otis Barton & William Beebe were the first humans who first time in human history reached half mile depth in the bathysphere in 1930s and physically observed the ocean at that depth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otis_Barton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Beebe

Observable from almost any cliff near a river joining the ocean. I've seen it myself, and it is obvious what is happening. You only think it's a miracle because YOU didn't know about it. Sailors and anyone living by the ocean would know.

1. You are trying to make a match between people living in 2015 with all their sophisticated gadgets, knowledge, and modern means of transport with the people who were living in 7th century Arabian Desert with camels and donkeys.
2. The things, which are obvious to you, were not obvious to them. For example, you know what stars are but to ancient people it was not obvious to what they are looking at, in the night sky.
3. That is the reason in history you cannot find anything about halocline or about something even similar to it.

Proving that muslims were familiar with basic surgery and biology. Impressive considering their day, but not very miraculous.

The time when Prophet Mohammad received first few verses at the age of 40, there exists not a single Muslim in the world. Here are first two verses of that first revelation:

“PROCLAIM! (OR READ!) IN THE NAME OF THY LORD AND CHERISHER, WHO CREATED-”
“CREATED MAN, OUT OF A (MERE) CLOT OF CONGEALED BLOOD:”
Al 'Alaq (96)
-Verses 1 – 2-

Please pay attention to the second verse, which is giving a scientific fact that contemporary embryologists discovered only in 20th century.

This says more about the muslim love for torture than about their scientific prowess. Normal people don't go around thinking about the best way to cause people pain, and I would say that a loving God probably wouldn't either. A bunch of twisted, angry desert people, on the other hand. . .

“AS TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS, verily We shall not suffer to perish the reward of any who do a (SINGLE) RIGHTEOUS DEED.”

“For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade: They will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on!”
Al Kahfi (18)
-Verse 30 – 31-

“And those Foremost (in Faith) will be Foremost (in the Hereafter).”
“These will be those Nearest to Allah.”
“In Gardens of Bliss:”
“A number of people from those of old,”
“And a few from those of later times.”
“(They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones),”
“Reclining on them, facing each other.”
“Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness),”
“With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains:”
“No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication:”
“And with fruits, any that they may select:”
“And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire.”
“And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,-”
“Like unto Pearls well-guarded.”
“A REWARD FOR THE DEEDS OF THEIR PAST (LIFE).”
“Not frivolity will they hear therein, nor any taint of ill,-”
“Only the saying, "Peace! Peace".”

Al Waaqi'ah (56)
-Verse 10 – 26-

[Fidel_Castronaut]

None of those things relate at all the topics you say they do. There's no mention of a singularity for the big bang in the Quran ergo = post hoc reasoning.

You wouldn't infer that verse specifically related to the Big Bang unless you knew about it. I mean the iron thing is great. Does the Quran discuss the atomic composition of iron, and how iron is actually formed?

Objective of Quran is to guide people to moral behaviour by discouraging arrogance and meanness rather than predicting science recipes to enhance their somatic comfort. That is the reason scientific facts in Quran become conceivable only after their discoveries. Those imperative scientific facts, which future generations will discern, manifest divine nature of Quran.

Right now, we are facing exactly this situation where no one of us can give rational explanation on “How modern scientific facts get into 7th century Quran.”

Yes we can. Post hoc reasoning. You inferring things that aren't there in an archaic nonsensical 'holy' book from your contemporary knowledge of the current

The end.

*sigh* I suspect without reading this thread that everyone else has rebutted this for the same reason. That should tell you something, but i suspect the indoctrination is too strong and you are forever lost.

Forever Lost! Where? In the realm where you live, where you (atheists) popped out from “NOWHERE,” without any “REASON” and after enjoying few infinitesimal moments then perish into “NOTHINGNESS” again without any “REASON?” Well good news is I am not part of that hopeless idealism.

So, proof by assertion, and an argument from incredulity is what you replace it with?

Cool reasoning bro. Tell it again? Oh BTW, we both occupy the same 'realm', the realm where reality has repeatedly testes every single one of your claims and found them to be false without exception. What a brilliant track record your religion has, so convincing >_>

Oh well, not my life, so I don't really care. Please continue with your confirmation bias and faulty logic

Has anyone yet proved that so-called “faulty logic” to be faulty?

Yes, repeatedly, over several threads. You're just too dense to comprehend how "Random post hoc reasoning therfore [my personal] deity" doesn't even go a millionth of the way towards making what you say true. Using fallacy laden assertions to 'evidence' you view that you very specific personal deity created everything is, at best, utterly ridiculous and at worse shamefully ignorant. You should be ashamed of yourself living in the 21st century yet clinging to the very obviously false mythologies of the 7th.

No one is capable to explain by any natural means how modern scientific discoveries get into 7th century Quran.

Again, Post hoc reasoning.

[paulpablo]

Point of emphasis here is not how IRON CAME DOWN to earth but that IRON IS A FOREIGN ELEMENT to earth and this idea Quran has expressed without any vagueness.

Oh ok sorry, I didn't realise that "Sent down" definitely means sent down as a foreign element to earth and there was no other interpretation to it.
This means Muhammad, rain, manna, quails, clothing and cattle are foreign elements to earth according to the quran.
This means the quran is incorrect because Muhammad, quails clothing and cattle are definitely not foreign to earth.

[paulpablo]

French barber-surgeon Ambroise Paré was the first to describe different degrees of burns in the 1500s. Guillaume Dupuytren expanded these degrees into six different severities in 1832.

The first hospital to treat burns opened in 1843 in London, England and the development of modern burn care began in the late 1800s and early 1900s. During World War I, Henry D. Dakin and Alexis Carrel developed standards for the cleaning and disinfecting of burns and wounds using sodium hypochlorite solutions, which significantly reduced mortality. In the 1940s, the importance of early excision and skin grafting was acknowledged, and around the same time, fluid resuscitation and formulas to guide it were developed. In the 1970s, researchers demonstrated the significance of the hypermetabolic state that follows large burns.

Under the heading “History”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn

Only in 1882, Magnus Blix reported that specific spots on the skin elicit sensations of either cold or heat when stimulated, and proposed that the different sensations of cool and warm are caused by stimulation of different, specific receptors in the skin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Blix

As you can see, only in 1500 people have come across the knowledge of different degrees of burn and only in 1882 they learned the reality of skin. You cannot find anything about 3rd degree burn before 1500 and about the reality of skin before 1882.

I hope you trust “Wikipedia.”

Yes and the quran revealed none of this information, it all had to be discovered using medical science.
Now can you answer my question that you keep avoiding, would ancient people have experienced the symptoms of 3rd degree burns?

[Cyberman]

Iron is not a foreign element to Earth; meteoritic iron is. The Earth's core is made of - ah, fuck it.

[JuliaL]

If you look at random data with sufficient depth, you will find whatever patterns you are looking for.
It's not like the Quran is the only text that has religious bias and people with enough spare time to find spurious, false positive correlations.
Like finding faces in clouds or on the mountains of mars.

Jews do it--a lot--https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code

Crazy Christians do it---
in elizabethan english http://www.revelation13.net/KingJames.html
in aramaic---http://www.biblecodedigest.com/page.php?PageID=418
and in greek---http://www.greaterthings.com/Word-Number...#1770-1792

Cheap computing power and public algorithms in recent years has given endless numbers of crackpots the ability to spew meaningless garbage over the internet.

Secular folk do it to show the data it 'reveals' is coincidental (or there are 'miracles' everywhere.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code

Australian television personality John Safran and McKay again demonstrated the "tuning" technique, demonstrating that these techniques could produce "evidence" of the September 11 terrorist attacks on New York in the lyrics of Vanilla Ice's repertoire.

http://www.apollowebworks.com/atheism/theomatics.html

So, I decided to run the program on a ridiculously UNholy text. Casting around for inspiration, I decided to copy the famous chain letter scam written by Dave Rhodes years ago, entitled "Make Money Fast". You can read the letter by clicking here.

I got lots and lots of phrases that were divisible by 111. Most were nonsense by themselves, but I managed to cull out several that were quite meaningful.

You just have to have relaxed standards for what you will accept as remarkable and a real drive to find what you want to find.
Confirmation bias and the Texas sharpshooter fallacy do this nicely.

You need to predict something that has not yet happened for your method to be true or useful.
Your statement that
"we do not have access to all that information because whether information is in a coded form or we are not yet matured to understand it."
Is simply an ad-hoc bogus rationalization of your inability to accurately predict future events which is the only possible, and to date, completely unproven, useful function of prophesy.

[robvalue]

Still no one has told me how we know they didn't get this "information" from an alien, a talking magic frog or special truth-giving chemicals. How did all these possibilities get crossed off the list leaving just one specific comic book character?

"Because goat touchers say so" is not sufficient.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Still no one has told me how we know they didn't get this "information" from an alien, a talking magic frog or special truth-giving chemicals. How did all these possibilities get crossed off the list leaving just one specific comic book character?

"Because goat touchers say so" is not sufficient.

It is for him, which makes it all the more tragic/laughable. I guess they don't teach critical thinking where he's from?

[robvalue]

Indeed. If they'd have written 1+1=3, would that be true as well? If you believe everything they write after a certain point, you are prepared to believe anything. That's not a good position for anyone concerned at all with reality.