Brace yourselves for gravitational waves

[Excited Penguin]

I don't understand. How can it be infinite if it has a starting point from which it expands?

It doesn't have to have that, that's a common misconception. The big bang wasn't an outward explosion that necessarily started in one point.

LOL. I don't get it.

[Excited Penguin]

I don't understand. How can it be infinite if it has a starting point from which it expands?

It doesn't have to have that, that's a common misconception. The big bang wasn't an outward explosion that necessarily started in one point. Since relativity breaks down, and inflation likely took place driven by quantum fluctuations, we cannot trace ut back to size zero anyways, and such a singularity likely never occurred.

I still don't get it. Let me put it a little differently. Did the universe have a size, moments after the Big Bang? Does it have a size now? You can't say something is infinite if it has a size, right?

[Excited Penguin]

Do you know of any good books I could read to understand this better? It seems I'm thinking about it the wrong way.

[Brian37]

I think you missed my point. Again, why cant it be both infinite and finite? You can literally draw a finite line on a piece of paper and have an infinite number of decimal places within that finite line.

AGAIN, although we don't know right now either way, my guess  OFF is not infinite and On is not infinite, but going from off to on back to of to on.......could be infinite.

That's not exactly infinity. That's still a finite thing you're talking about. It's only infinite mathematically(or theoretically), but not really. Real infinity would simply mean that you could go in one direction forever, without ever having to stop or going in circles.

You can't have both infinite and finite space. That's absurd. How do you even imagine such a thing?


What OFF and what ON. What the hell are you talking about.

What is wrong with viewing all this like a light switch? Or up and down or in and out? Off "seemingly nothing prior to the singularity, then a buildup then the big bang to the "On" we see now, which will run out of fuel like a car does.

YES YOU CAN ............ You can have an infinite number of decimal places between numbers without actually reaching them.

.1 ------- .01-----------.001  .0001 .00001  .000001   .0000001   .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

Now keep moving that to the right as far back as you wish, try to fill those in, you get to 1. but between 1 and 2 you can do the same thing, between 2 and 3 you can do the same thing, between 3 and 4 you can do the same thing.

You are thinking about the difference between classical big numbers in a classroom. QM deals with the MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF POINTS BETWEEN POINT A AND POINT B. those decimal places can go on foreveer

You DO have an infinite amount of points on a finite line. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity

For example, the set of integers is countably infinite, while the infinite set of real numbers is .

Or

https://www.quora.com/How-is-it-possible-to-have-infinite-points-between-two-finite-limits

[Brian37]

https://www.quora.com/How-is-it-possible...ite-limits

[Brian37]

There is a well defined notion of the spatial extent of the universe, and it is either finite or not. It could however be finite in one direction and infinite in another... All we know right now is that if it is finite, it appears to be bigger than the visible universe (otherwise it would show signatures in the CMB). If there was cosmic inflation, it is likely at least many many orders of magnitude bigger than the observable patch.

Ok, but still, am I wrong since currently we don't know something or nothing or infinite vs finite?

What would be wrong with thinking of nothing being temporary and something being temporary but going from one to the other over and over being infinite? I don't know. It just seems an obvious extrapolation considering everything we see now builds up then eventually breaks down. Why cant what we don't know before, and what we don't know after, simply be a cycle? Seems to be that way now. 

Again, I am no expert of course, but if we are going to postulate one or the other and still admit we don't have that answer, why cant QM give us the third option of both depending on QM POV?

[Excited Penguin]

---

That's not exactly infinity. That's still a finite thing you're talking about. It's only infinite mathematically(or theoretically), but not really. Real infinity would simply mean that you could go in one direction forever, without ever having to stop or going in circles.

You can't have both infinite and finite space. That's absurd. How do you even imagine such a thing?


What OFF and what ON. What the hell are you talking about.

What is wrong with viewing all this like a light switch? Or up and down or in and out? Off "seemingly nothing prior to the singularity, then a buildup then the big bang to the "On" we see now, which will run out of fuel like a car does.

YES YOU CAN ............ You can have an infinite number of decimal places between numbers without actually reaching them.

.1 ------- .01-----------.001  .0001 .00001  .000001   .0000001   .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

Now keep moving that to the right as far back as you wish, try to fill those in, you get to 1. but between 1 and 2 you can do the same thing, between 2 and 3 you can do the same thing, between 3 and 4 you can do the same thing.

You are thinking about the difference between classical big numbers in a classroom. QM deals with the MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF POINTS BETWEEN POINT A AND POINT B. those decimal places can go on foreveer

---

You DO have an infinite amount of points on a finite line. 

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity

For example, the set of integers is countably infinite, while the infinite set of real numbers is .

Or

https://www.quora.com/How-is-it-possible-to-have-infinite-points-between-two-finite-limits

---

Yes, I know, but I'm not talking about that kind of infinity. No matter how many decimals you may have between 1 and 2, the actual distance between the two points is still the same and it's finite.

[Brian37]

What is wrong with viewing all this like a light switch? Or up and down or in and out? Off "seemingly nothing prior to the singularity, then a buildup then the big bang to the "On" we see now, which will run out of fuel like a car does.

YES YOU CAN ............ You can have an infinite number of decimal places between numbers without actually reaching them.

.1 ------- .01-----------.001  .0001 .00001  .000001   .0000001   .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

Now keep moving that to the right as far back as you wish, try to fill those in, you get to 1. but between 1 and 2 you can do the same thing, between 2 and 3 you can do the same thing, between 3 and 4 you can do the same thing.

You are thinking about the difference between classical big numbers in a classroom. QM deals with the MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF POINTS BETWEEN POINT A AND POINT B. those decimal places can go on foreveer

You DO have an infinite amount of points on a finite line. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity




Or

https://www.quora.com/How-is-it-possible-to-have-infinite-points-between-two-finite-limits

Yes, I know, but I'm not talking about that kind of infinity. No matter how many decimals you may have between 1 and 2, the actual distance between the two points is still the same and it's finite.

Nope, you are still, it seems to me getting tripped up on trying to treat abstracts, which the language of mathematics are, as physical things, they are not. They are the numbers we use describe our observations.

You really can literally draw a physical line on a piece of paper and still have an infinite number of decimal places between those finite points. 

Maybe we are on the same page here. I think you or I might be getting pedantic?

The line is physical and finite, but the math used to describe it has to be open to those infinite points for us mathematically describe our observations. If we didn't have that concept of infinite decimal places we would never get to our current quantum mechanics. 

If you have a physical line on a piece of paper that is 10 inches long, the line certainly is 10 inches long, but the math between those two points can go on forever.

Math is a language, an abstract, math is not physical, it is the language we use to describe our observations. 

1 apple.

.5 or half the apple

.05 of the apple

.000005 the apple.

So on and so on and so on. The apple is finite, yes, but the math we can use to describe the material in it goes all the way down to the atom and quarks and Higgs Bosos particles in that 1 apple. Now take that complex math and apply it to our 1 known universe. You still need those infinite abstract numbers to calculate our observation of material.

[Excited Penguin]

I am only converned with the line in that analogy. The line being the universe. As you said yourself it is finite, and that's all that matters.

Yes, you are getting pedantic.

[Brian37]

I am only converned with the line in that analogy. The line being the universe. As you said yourself it is finite, and that's all that matters.

Yes, you are getting pedantic.

I'm not stuck like some on taking a "we came from nothing" which is fine, or "we came from something" which is fine with me as well. What I do know which is far more important for more people to grow to accept is that humans are not the center of all this. That is my sticking point with theists. No matter what we don't currently know, we do know we don't need a cosmic sky wizard either way..