The Problem with Christians

[abaris]

If the supernatural operates outside the laws of science, how can I prove it with science?

It doesn't operate at all, outside of hearsay and legend. And I asked you another question, which you never answered. Even if I gave you the possibility of the supernatural existing, why is the cause supposed to be your particular brand of god and not some other as of yet unexplained phenomena?

[Cyberman]

If the supernatural operates outside the laws of science, how can I prove it with science?

I'll make it easy for you. If what you consider supernatural operates outside the laws of science, does it affect anything within the laws of science in any way? Start there.

[Simon Moon]

If the supernatural operates outside the laws of science, how can I prove it with science?

I'll make it easy for you. If what you consider supernatural operates outside the laws of science, does it affect anything within the laws of science in any way? Start there.

Just in case AJW333's intellect does not allow him to understand what you are alluding to, I'll spell it out a bit for him.

If you are claiming that your supernatural god is able to, and does interact with the natural laws of science (miracles, appearing to various people, communicating with people, etc), then those claims can be tested scientifically.

In other words, if your god answers your prayers, or communicates with you,  then you are claiming to be a "god detector", and that is a testable claim.

[Simon Moon]

When the earth was formed, it would have consisted simply of dirt, rocks and water. What else was there to create life with?

This is so fractally incorrect, that it is not even wrong.

Please stop getting your info from creationist websites, they are making you look way dumber than you probably are (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are just being misled by dishonest hucksters).

[Cyberman]

I'm hoping he's just Poeing at this point. Seriously; nobody can be that dense and still remember to breathe... can they?

[ronedee]

They ignore logic.  Not only that, they ignore it to the detriment of reason so that they can create these silly counter arguments that are not even logical.  

Oh, forgive me, their arguments are logical to them and their perpetually damaging delusion.

Christians only create, as they did their imaginary friend since the beginning of time, apologetics because they know they are on the loosing end, and they think they can somehow cling to something meaningful if more idiots follow their brand of idiocy.

Interesting that no one brought up the fact that Christians follow the dogma of Christ. No matter your belief system, the fact is: that true followers of Christ are just that; It has little to do with unknowns, mysteries or scientific facts. Its our way of life! 

So, you can all go on and on about "proof" all you want... but it does nothing to refute the dogma, or Word of Christ, or His [true] followers.

No... the problem is with atheists, or anti-theists who revel in tearing down any manner of the creationism ideology. Instead of looking for reasons and logic for a creator, there is always vicious rebelling against any inkling of it. Whether it be in: miracles, supernatural events, or witnessing. You never even consider that the creator wants it the way it is purposely.

Our lives as Christians are based on Faith, and the Words of Jesus Christ. That is ALL WE NEED! The only limits we have are our physical bodies.... and those we inflict on ourselves through sin and closed-mindedness. And this is accepted as Christians, to be all by design. 

Omni-whatever.... We are the masters of our own destiny! Whether He knows the results or not, God is still interactive in our lives and gives us every opportunity to act as Jesus did: To Love unconditionally... even our enemies. 

Jesus  said, "The kingdom is within."  Seek & you will find." Ask and the door will be open to you." So, the answer is not in a test tube, a hole in the ground, or some far reaches of the universe.... a religion or scientist. 

The Problem with Christians? Its the same answer for everyone.....

Its under our noses the whole time. But we continually refuse to acknowledge it. That is why we have Jesus! To constantly remind us that "Love" is the answer. The only true answer to solve all the problems and mysteries of this world.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

They ignore logic.  Not only that, they ignore it to the detriment of reason so that they can create these silly counter arguments that are not even logical.  

Oh, forgive me, their arguments are logical to them and their perpetually damaging delusion.

Christians only create, as they did their imaginary friend since the beginning of time, apologetics because they know they are on the loosing end, and they think they can somehow cling to something meaningful if more idiots follow their brand of idiocy.

Interesting that no one brought up the fact that Christians follow the dogma of Christ. No matter your belief system, the fact is: that true followers of Christ are just that; It has little to do with unknowns, mysteries or scientific facts. Its our way of life! 

So, you can all go on and on about "proof" all you want... but it does nothing to refute the dogma, or Word of Christ, or His [true] followers.

No... the problem is with atheists, or anti-theists who revel in tearing down any manner of the creationism ideology. Instead of looking for reasons and logic for a creator, there is always vicious rebelling against any inkling of it. Whether it be in: miracles, supernatural events, or witnessing. You never even consider that the creator wants it the way it is purposely.

Our lives as Christians are based on Faith, and the Words of Jesus Christ. That is ALL WE NEED! The only limits we have are our physical bodies.... and those we inflict on ourselves through sin and closed-mindedness. And this is accepted as Christians, to be all by design. 

Omni-whatever.... We are the masters of our own destiny! Whether He knows the results or not, God is still interactive in our lives and gives us every opportunity to act as Jesus did: To Love unconditionally... even our enemies. 

Jesus  said, "The kingdom is within."  Seek & you will find." Ask and the door will be open to you." So, the answer is not in a test tube, a hole in the ground, or some far reaches of the universe.... a religion or scientist. 

The Problem with Christians? Its the same answer for everyone.....

Its under our noses the whole time. But we continually refuse to acknowledge it. That is why we have Jesus! To constantly remind us that "Love" is the answer. The only true answer to solve all the problems and mysteries of this world.

Really, you believe only in the dogma of Jesus? Then he must be a bastard, without a father.

Before Jesus, there was and still is (in the doctrine of every single Xtain church, and we have been there) that of Yahweh, who the Jews called Jehovah. Both doctrines are idiotic, and Yahweh the angry, child-sacrificing monster is beyond repugnant.

[ronedee]

Really, you believe only in the dogma of Jesus? Then he must be a bastard, without a father.

Before Jesus, there was and still is (in the doctrine of every single Xtain church, and we have been there) that of Yahweh, who the Jews called Jehovah. Both doctrines are idiotic, and Yahweh the angry, child-sacrificing monster is beyond repugnant.

huh? wtf are you going on about? Do you talk just to hear yourself? Make some sense bubby.

[abaris]

Interesting that no one brought up the fact that Christians follow the dogma of Christ. No matter your belief system, the fact is: that true followers of Christ are just that; It has little to do with unknowns, mysteries or scientific facts. Its our way of life! 

Maybe say Catholics instead of christians. Since evangelicals certainly don't follow any dogma. True followers, I guess, again means Catholics.

Which is entirely irrelevant here, since we weren't the ones bringing up the supernatural and beating it like a dead horse endlessly. Demanding proof for it's existence is only in response to what this thread is alll about.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Perhaps someone should contact the accreditation folks and tell them that a university let one of theirs got away with a degree in science and a failure to understand the difference between tentatively accepting something as "most plausible" and a faith-decree. If you truly can't understand what "I believe this only to the degree it has been proven" means, then you're not a scientist, no matter what your degree says.

In my brief time at this forum, I have been asked over and over again to prove the supernatural, and been derided for not providing an "acceptable" proof. When I ask for proof of abiogenesis, I see a completely different standard being applied. You accept abiogenesis on the basis that it is "most plausible," with no proof whatsoever. How is that a more credible position than me accepting the supernatural as "most plausible" on the basis of both personal experience and the worldwide, centuries old existence of countless testimonies? At least there are hundreds of thousands of people claiming to have witnessed the supernatural and yet not one who has witnessed abiogenesis.

1) Eyewitness testimony is scientifically demonstrated (that is, by testing) to be ridiculously unreliable as a standard of evidence. Literally hundreds of experiments have been conducted that demonstrate this fact. If you are unaware that "someone claims to have seen" is not serious evidence, you have a serious problem in your life.

2) We do not say "most plausible" as "my favorite guess". We say "most plausible" because what we do know so far fits best with the model of reality, and it is reasonable to infer (which is why, again, dozens of groups of researchers--including the Jet Propulsion Lab, NASA's top scientists--are working on the issue, because it is clear there is something to find) that the historical, physical/chemical mechanism by which life's basic chemicals arose and began to replicate will be found. We know most of the steps, and are working on the remainder. The fact that it has not yet been accomplished doesn't mean we don't have a pretty good idea how it operates in general, and how it's likely to be discovered to operate specifically. We know that the precursor chemicals can and are made under natural conditions, via radio telescopes that look at interstellar ices. We know that life shows up on earth not terribly long after it was formed. We know that simple life (which made up our biosphere for well over 75% of the time it was here) can survive/thrive in many harsh conditions, such as the geothermal vents. We can create a few of the conditions in the lab, to see if these chemicals can self-assemble... and they do! That we have not yet progressed in our technology to do the full process is no more to the point that we cannot yet manufacture higher-complexity DNA sequences from scratch (they have made simple viruses/bacteria) does not mean we don't understand how DNA biochemistry works! And again, until it is proven, we only think it seems likely that this will be the explanation, since it does not require magic and the evidence points that way so far.

3) You think magic is real. Magic! And you're trying to assert that as equally plausible to a scientific model??