Transexuals

[Catholic_Lady]

Sorry I missed it.

One thing, I don't think it's fair to compare a woman feeling uncomfortable in private situations or in states of undress in the presence of a physically male person, to a white person not feeling comfortable next to a black person.

Why not? I can't think of a good reason why this isn't an apt comparison. Put the shoe on the other foot, C_L. If you were a black person in the 60's getting on a bus with one seat left, and it was next to a white person, do you not think that was a potentially dangerous, awkward, and incredibly scary situation?

Should I compare it to newly integrated bathrooms, then? When the scary and barbaric negroes were coming into the restrooms with little white children? How about when they got rid of the colored drinking fountains, and white children were forced to drink from the same water fountains as those disease infested niggers?

I say these words only to prove a point, that these arguments are just regurgitated fear mongering. What will these freedoms usher in? How many times are you going to fall for the same catastrophism when none of these instilled fears ever come to light?

 

Mike, be reasonable. You're equating sex with race. If to you, the 2 are completely identical and interchangeable, then there shouldn't be men's rooms or women's rooms at all. Everyone should just poop and pee and change and shower in the same vicinity. Anything other than that, would, to your logic, be segregation and discrimination exactly like separating black drinking fountains from white ones.

Are you seriously saying that women who feel uncomfortable (and by that I mean embarrassed, not necessarily unsafe) being in that situation in front of men are no different from white people wanting to sit separately from black people? I'm sorry, but this is a bit ridiculous.

A woman may feel embarrassed to be in a state of undress in front of a trans person who has not transitioned because she is embarrassed to be in a state of undress in front of a man, not because she has anything against trans people. And she may feel embarrassed to be in a state of undress in front of a man because she is a woman, not because she is a bigot who hates men.

A trans person may have the brain of a woman, yes, but unless they have had a sex change they still have the body of a man. They may be women in the inside, but they are still men on the outside. A woman who does not feel comfortable peeing/pooping/changing/showering in front of people who are outward men are not bigots equivalent to racist folks. This is just plain silly.    

To be clear, do you hold the same views for lockerrooms/changing rooms as well? That there should be no line at all, and any person who says they are trans can just go in, even if it's a very male looking individual who is wearing lipstick?

There should be a line. If a person is transgender, they should be able to choose what bathroom/locker room/changing room they feel most comfortable in.

Right. So you're saying anyone who even claims to be transgender can just walk into a changing room or lockerroom where women are changing out of bathing suits and/or taking showers, even if that person still looks like a man but is just wearing some lipstick and padded bra. You're saying there should be no limits at all. And if a woman feels uncomfortable (aka embarrassed) being openly undressed in front of such a person, she's just being a bigot and should just suck it up, and too bad for her.  

I'm sorry, but this is very one sided. I get that trans people may feel uncomfortable changing in front of people who match their physical sex. But on the other hand, women may feel uncomfortable changing in front of people who don't. The only fair solution to this is a 3rd bathroom. Anything else is one sided for one side or the other. You seem like you'd be more reasonable than this.

[Catholic_Lady]

Also, CL, do us a favour and stop assuming all perverts are men please, we're not all a bunch of dickbags.

I'm not assuming that at all. Neither did I ever or would I EVER say you are "all a bunch of dickbags." Honestly, I can't believe how much my words and points are being twisted. I guess after almost a year here I shouldn't be surprised anymore.

[Catholic_Lady]

I haven't kept up with CL's posts but can you point to where she said that all perverts are men, meaning that no women are perverts?  Did CL ever say that no women are perverts in a post?  Could you copy and paste where she said it because I've never seen it.

As far as i've seen, whenever she's talked about perverts, it's always been men perving on women, when quite the opposite does happen, which was what i was referring to with my request to acknowledge that the opposite does happen. She hasn't explicitly stated it, but without acknowledging the other at all, it does come off as such.

Because I'm a woman, and so I'm talking about it from a woman's perspective. Also, while I know there are plenty of women pervs out there who prey on men and who prey on other women, the fact still remains that it's a much bigger issue the other way around. But I never ever EVER said "only men are pervs and all men are dickbags." Please. I may be a lot of things, but a man hating feminazi is NOT one of them.

[Catholic_Lady]

It's okay...it's been a long, hard train wreck of a thread...pun intended, lol.  [emoji6]

Is a thread about a controversial topic ever not train wreck-y?

Anyways, apologies CL, I totally jumped the gun there, too used to that assumption being used far too much D:

Thank you. Accepted.

[Catholic_Lady]

They use mirrors and plant hidden cameras.

Do you think there is a legitimate reason to believe that disallowing transwoman to continue using whatever restroom they're comfortable using will decrease the risk of this happening?

I've already explained my views on this a number of times and don't feel like repeating myself yet again on how I'm seeing this.   

Nonetheless, again, while I think fakes taking advantage of the opportunity to peep on women is a concern that should be taken into account, it is by no means the ultimate reason why I believe 3rd bathrooms are the best option. 

Women's comfort level (embarrassment) with pooping/peeing/changing/showering in front of people who are still men on the outside is the ultimate reason.

[Mystic]

Women's comfort level (embarrassment) with pooping/peeing/changing/showering in front of people who are still men on the outside is the ultimate reason.

But this type of comfort level can be tempered by the mind if we understand the nature of transgenders.  We should in this instance put their well being over our gut knee reactions to the issue. I know Quran makes an exception to men who have no desire for women, they can see women without Hijaab. Some people say this referred specifically to people who their privates cut off for unjust reasons, but I think by definition it can be extended to transsexuals.

[Catholic_Lady]

Women's comfort level (embarrassment) with pooping/peeing/changing/showering in front of people who are still men on the outside is the ultimate reason.

But this type of comfort level can be tempered by the mind if we understand the nature of transgenders.  We should in this instance put their well being over our gut knee reactions to the issue. I know Quran makes an exception to men who have no desire for women, they can see women without Hijaab. Some people say this referred specifically to people who their privates cut off for unjust reasons, but I think by definition it can be extended to transsexuals.

Perhaps you don't know this, but there are plenty of trans folks who are still attracted to women. Just because a biological man identifies as a woman, does not mean they are attracted to men.  Cait Jenner (formerly Bruce Jenner), for example, is still attracted to women not to men. But that's beside the point.

The point is, both the trans person and the woman may feel uncomfortable/embarrassed to be in states of undress in front of particular groups of people. The trans person may feel uncomfortable changing in the men's lockerroom because they themselves are women in the inside. The women may feel uncomfortable changing in front of a trans person who has not transitioned because those people are still men on the outside. Both of their feelings should be taken into account. To favor one group and tell the other one "too bad" is one sided. That's why I believe the only fair option here is a 3rd private bathroom for people to use when they have not yet transitioned. That way no one feels uncomfortable, and everyone's well being is taken into account. Not just one or the other.

[Whateverist]

Perhaps we just need separate bathroom facilities for believers and non believers. Within their own facility each group could decide on how much privacy to accord the sexes, races and practitioners of various sexual preference.


So happy to be retired now and so have time to consider these important issues.

[abaris]

Oh, by the way, since it fits the matter at hand quite nicely. Here's one of the august sponsors of the anti transgender laws.

GOP cosponsor of anti-trans bathroom bill is a danger to ‘unsuspecting women’, probe finds

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/gop-cos...obe-finds/

One might ask who you should be more afraid of.

[Mystic]

But this type of comfort level can be tempered by the mind if we understand the nature of transgenders.  We should in this instance put their well being over our gut knee reactions to the issue. I know Quran makes an exception to men who have no desire for women, they can see women without Hijaab. Some people say this referred specifically to people who their privates cut off for unjust reasons, but I think by definition it can be extended to transsexuals.

Perhaps you don't know this, but there are plenty of trans folks who are still attracted to women. Just because a biological man identifies as a woman, does not mean they are attracted to men.  Cait Jenner (formerly Bruce Jenner), for example, is still attracted to women not to men. But that's beside the point.

The point is, both the trans person and the woman may feel uncomfortable/embarrassed to be in states of undress in front of particular groups of people. The trans person may feel uncomfortable changing in the men's lockerroom because they themselves are women in the inside. The women may feel uncomfortable changing in front of a trans person who has not transitioned because those people are still men on the outside. Both of their feelings should be taken into account. To favor one group and tell the other one "too bad" is one sided. That's why I believe the only fair option here is a 3rd private bathroom for people to use when they have not yet transitioned. That way no one feels uncomfortable, and everyone's well being is taken into account. Not just one or the other.

Ahh I see, it's little more complicated then I thought. I thought the overwhelming majority felt attracted to the opposite sex they feel thy are as well. I guess I was ignorant in that regard.

I guess I will withdraw judgement on this issue. A third bathroom in every business probably won't happen for practical reasons of cost.

I just feel they are the ones with the problem, you know, we should sacrifice our personal comfort for their well being....a third bathroom may constantly remind them of being different and not feeling identified with their gender. 

I am not a doctor or scientist or psychologist who has studied them, so I don't know.  I just see them as vulnerable, and we ought to accommodate for them.