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May 20, 2011 at 3:18 pm (This post was last modified: May 20, 2011 at 3:30 pm by Statler Waldorf.)
(May 20, 2011 at 2:28 pm)everythingafter Wrote:
(May 19, 2011 at 7:00 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Why do you assume that just because you don't understand why God does something a certain way it automatically makes it unjust, or proves he is not real? I don't see the logic in that at all my friend.
I'm sorry if my feeble mind can't wrap my mind around a god who supposedly loves man yet places him in such an impossible position. God: "I demand you love me and believe in my son or face the fire." This is spiritual blackmail.
Or ...
God: "I created man, and it was good. Now, I'm going to put you in the garden where the devil will inevitably tempt you. I will allow the devil into my wonderful garden so you can prove your obedience to me. Unfortunately, you will fail. I knew you would fail beforehand, but I chose to create you anyway. Even though I have cursed you and every other human that will come after you, I love you and Eve. But take heart, I'm sending my son to die a horrible death for you. That makes it better, right? In retrospect, I guess I could have prevented the whole ugly scenario in the first place, but I, in all my lucidity, chose to begin the slow death march of humanity. Some of you, I admit, will think on these things and probably reject me. Oh well. Sorry about that. I'm all-powerful and all-loving, but there's nothing I can do there. My omniscient hands are tied. But I do love you. You know that, right?"
What am I not understanding? What other reasons could God possibly have for knowingly placing us in this spiritual gauntlet? Pronouncements saying that God has his reasons or that God's ways are not our ways, makes "God's ways" very peculiar and cruel indeed. In any case, such pronouncements get God off the hook far too easily.
I don't say all this absolutely proves he is not real, just that it makes it highly unlikely. Or, at the least, makes this god, like all others, unworthy of worship.
You keep appealing to a sense of justice, fairness, and love and saying God is not practicing these. Where are you getting these from? How are you determining what is just, fair, and loving?
Quote: - The "predestination" seems to be foreign to the Old Testament too (as far as I remember, there is no verse to clearly suggest/specify predestination in the Old Testament, i.e. the Jewish Bible).
What? I think the Old Testament teaches the idea that God chose to save a group of people since the foundation of the world just as or even more strongly than the New Testament.
Quote:
Deuteronomy 10:14-15 "Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the LORD your God, also the earth with all that is in it. (15) "The LORD delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day.
Exodus 6:7 ‘I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I [am] the LORD your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
Deut 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."
Psa 33:12 Blessed [is] the nation whose God [is] the LORD; [and] the people [whom] he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
Psalms 106:4-5 Remember me, O LORD, with the favor You have toward Your people; Oh, visit me with Your salvation, (5) That I may see the benefit of Your chosen ones, That I may rejoice in the gladness of Your nation, That I may glory with Your inheritance.
And the list goes on and on…
Maybe when you said predestination you were not referring to God’s sovereignty in election? My apologies if I did not follow your point.
May 20, 2011 at 3:47 pm (This post was last modified: May 20, 2011 at 3:50 pm by prayforme.)
(May 20, 2011 at 5:06 am)tackattack Wrote: I worship a God that did create everything (including evil). He setup condition for success or failure, the alternative would be to set up no conditions or choice. I suppose He could have created beings that can't choose anything, but what would be the point of that?
Better yet, why would a perfect, all-knowing being of infinite proportions that resides outside of space and time feel the need to create anything at all? What is the point of it?
Or even better, what the hell is such a being? Believing in things that are impossible to comprehend is a waste of time, my friend. This concept you call "God" has no real meaning within the context of reality as we know it. Ultimately, it's just a buzzword that screws with people's emotions.
May 20, 2011 at 3:48 pm (This post was last modified: May 20, 2011 at 4:06 pm by everythingafter.)
(May 20, 2011 at 3:18 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: You keep appealing to a sense of justice, fairness, and love and saying God is not practicing these. Where are you getting these from? How are you determining what is just, fair, and loving?
We don't need to summon a higher power to talk in terms of justice and love. If human beings or some other higher intelligence had never developed, these concepts would remain undefined as they were millions of years ago. Our societies and personal relationships give them meaning.
(May 20, 2011 at 3:18 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: What? I think the Old Testament teaches the idea that God chose to save a group of people since the foundation of the world just as or even more strongly than the New Testament.
The real question: What's so special about Israel? What did God have against the Chinese or Greeks or South American societies wandering about 4,000 years ago.
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We have lingered in the chambers of the sea | By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown | Till human voices wake us, and we drown. — T.S. Eliot
"... man always has to decide for himself in the darkness, that he must want beyond what he knows. ..." — Simone de Beauvoir
"As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself—so like a brother, really—I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again." — Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
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May 20, 2011 at 3:48 pm (This post was last modified: May 20, 2011 at 3:50 pm by Doubting Thomas.)
(May 20, 2011 at 3:18 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: You keep appealing to a sense of justice, fairness, and love and saying God is not practicing these. Where are you getting these from? How are you determining what is just, fair, and loving?
What's fair and just about a system of "Love and worship me or else I'll torture you for all eternity?" How is that fair to those of us who just want to live our lives without any religion, and when we die just enter into a state of oblivion? I never signed up for the "love me or be tortured" deal. And according to Christians, there is no opt-out option. Everyone is subject to the rules simply through the process of being born. What's fair about a "gift" being offered which has such strings attached? How can that be a gift at all?
If God were just, fair, & loving, he wouldn't torture people for eternity for simply not believing in him or worshiping him while they were alive, especially since he never gives anyone any evidence that he actually exists. Nor is his holy book specifically clear on what it exactly is that he wants us to do. So it's not fair of God not only to force everyone to accept the conditions of "worship me or be tortured" deal, but to "worship me EXACTLY the way I want to be worshiped or be tortured, and you have to figure out the details of exactly how I want to be worshiped. Even if you think you're doing it right, if you do it wrong you lose."
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
May 20, 2011 at 3:53 pm (This post was last modified: May 20, 2011 at 4:01 pm by Statler Waldorf.)
(May 20, 2011 at 3:48 pm)everythingafter Wrote:
(May 20, 2011 at 3:18 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: You keep appealing to a sense of justice, fairness, and love and saying God is not practicing these. Where are you getting these from? How are you determining what is just, fair, and loving?
We don't need to summon a higher power to talk in terms of justice and love. If human beings or some other higher intelligence had never developed, these concepts would remain undefined as they were millions of years ago. Our societies and personal relationships give them meaning.
Wait wait, so you are using concepts of justice, fairness, and love that people have determined and you are trying to apply them to God? That seems a bit backwards. I would think that God would determine what was just, fair, and loving.
(May 20, 2011 at 3:48 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote:
(May 20, 2011 at 3:18 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: You keep appealing to a sense of justice, fairness, and love and saying God is not practicing these. Where are you getting these from? How are you determining what is just, fair, and loving?
What's fair and just about a system of "Love and worship me or else I'll torture you for all eternity?" How is that fair to those of us who just want to live our lives without any religion, and when we die just enter into a state of oblivion? I never signed up for the "love me or be tortured" deal. And according to Christians, there is no opt-out option. Everyone is subject to the rules simply through the process of being born. What's fair about a "gift" being offered which has such strings attached? How can that be a gift at all?
If God were just, fair, & loving, he wouldn't torture people for eternity for simply not believing in him or worshiping him while they were alive, especially since he never gives anyone any evidence that he actually exists. Nor is his holy book specifically clear on what it exactly is that he wants us to do. So it's not fair of God not only to force everyone to accept the conditions of "worship me or be tortured" deal, but to "worship me EXACTLY the way I want to be worshiped or be tortured, and you have to figure out the details of exactly how I want to be worshiped. Even if you think you're doing it right, if you do it wrong you lose."
Where in scripture does it say God sends people to hell for worshipping Him the wrong way? He passes judgment on his creatures for crimes against Him, sin. Even one crime against Him is enough to justly warrant eternal punishment because He holds infinite authority over His creatures. All of us could wake up in hell and it would be a just punishment because of original sin. However, we are given better than this. So God gives everyone a form of grace, and gives His chosen people saving grace. So everyone gets better than they actually deserve. So in fact, it is you who is being unfair by complaining about a system that gives you better than you really deserve. If I committed a crime that deserved the death penalty and I was only given life in prison, I would not sit around in my cell complaining about how unfair life in prison was. Rather, I would be very grateful to the judge who gave me the gracious sentence.
May 20, 2011 at 4:51 pm (This post was last modified: May 20, 2011 at 4:56 pm by Doubting Thomas.)
(May 20, 2011 at 3:53 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Wait wait, so you are using concepts of justice, fairness, and love that people have determined and you are trying to apply them to God? That seems a bit backwards. I would think that God would determine what was just, fair, and loving.
So you're saying that God gets to make up his own definitions of fairness, justice, and love? That's like saying he could just destroy the earth and everyone on it, and it would be fair & just. Oh wait, that's what Christians already believe.
Quote:Where in scripture does it say God sends people to hell for worshipping Him the wrong way?
You just did, below:
Quote: He passes judgment on his creatures for crimes against Him, sin. Even one crime against Him is enough to justly warrant eternal punishment because He holds infinite authority over His creatures. All of us could wake up in hell and it would be a just punishment because of original sin.
All you are saying here is "might makes right." Because God is the one with all the power and can make up his own definitions of fairness & justice, he can send us to hell if he wants. How am I responsible for what Adam & Eve did? Assuming that fable is true, it would have happened thousands of years before I was born, so how is it fair for God to put punishment upon me and all other humans on the planet for what the first two people did especially since God in his infinite power to know everything knew they would disobey him? It just doesn't make sense and is totally unjust and unfair in any sense of the word. Unless you're God and get to make up your own definitions, of course.
Quote:So in fact, it is you who is being unfair by complaining about a system that gives you better than you really deserve. If I committed a crime that deserved the death penalty and I was only given life in prison, I would not sit around in my cell complaining about how unfair life in prison was. Rather, I would be very grateful to the judge who gave me the gracious sentence.
You sound like you suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. How do I deserve eternal punishment in hell for something I had nothing at all to do with, which I had absolutely no control over, and which happened thousands of years before I was even born? It's like the police arresting you off the street at random on the street for a theft which happened a hundred years ago by someone not even related to you, and being grateful to the judge who only gave you a life sentence instead of the death penalty.
And funny how you'd equate heaven with a life sentence in prison, because you've made such a true analogy it's beyond funny.
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
Quote: So you're saying that God gets to make up his own definitions of fairness, justice, and love? That's like saying he could just destroy the earth and everyone on it, and it would be fair & just. Oh wait, that's what Christians already believe.
Of course He makes the rules. This is His creation. That’s like saying the NFL Owners don’t make the rules, the players do. Silly.
Quote: You just did, below:
You never pointed to where it says you get sent to hell for not worshipping him the right way.
Quote: All you are saying here is "might makes right." Because God is the one with all the power and can make up his own definitions of fairness & justice, he can send us to hell if he wants. How am I responsible for what Adam & Eve did? Assuming that fable is true, it would have happened thousands of years before I was born, so how is it fair for God to put punishment upon me and all other humans on the planet for what the first two people did especially since God in his infinite power to know everything knew they would disobey him? It just doesn't make sense and is totally unjust and unfair in any sense of the word. Unless you're God and get to make up your own definitions, of course.
You keep acting as if there is a set of standards greater than God that He must adhere to. Of course God is only obligated to be Himself. You act as if it is somehow unfair for a parent to tell their kids they can’t watch R rated movies but then that parent watches them. God sets up rules for His creatures to follow; He is by no means obligated to follow these rules. He is fair, loving, and just because they are part of His nature, so everything He does is fair, loving, and just regardless of what you think.
It is fair for both of us to be punished for Adam’s fall because Adam was mankind’s representative. When a country’s representatives declare war on another country, everyone in that country is now at war. When Adam rebelled we all became rebels. You also act as if you have never sinned in your life, something I find highly doubtful. So the whole “it was Adam not me” argument is fairly moot.
Quote: And funny how you'd equate heaven with a life sentence in prison, because you've made such a true analogy it's beyond funny.
May 20, 2011 at 6:22 pm (This post was last modified: May 20, 2011 at 6:29 pm by Doubting Thomas.)
(May 20, 2011 at 5:09 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Of course He makes the rules. This is His creation.
"Might makes right" is not a reason to worship anyone. You can pretend to in order to not suffer the negative consequences, but you can't claim that the being you're worshiping is then fair & just.
Quote:You never pointed to where it says you get sent to hell for not worshipping him the right way.
Do I really need to? It's standard Christian doctrine. If I prayed to a rock, worshiped it, and called it "God," would I not be in violation of the first commandment? When I was raised Catholic, I was told all sorts of stuff I couldn't do because it offended God, and if you did it knowingly then you get sent to hell unless you repent & confess. Protestants think that Catholics are going to hell because they pray to statues. Muslims think that Christians are going to hell for eating pork and not bowing to Allah. And each Christian denomination came about because some people in a congregation didn't like what some of the others believed and split off to form their own group.
Quote:God sets up rules for His creatures to follow; He is by no means obligated to follow these rules.
Then he's not a being worth being worshiped. When he tells his followers to not kill, then tells some others to kill everyone in a particular town because they're evil, then you can't trust a deity with a double standard. If he's not even obligated to follow any rules at all, there's nothing that guarantees anyone passage into heaven. He could send everyone who ever existed to hell just for kicks and there's nothing anyone could say or do about it. The trouble is you see no problem with this because you have no problem whatsoever with the idea of a god who can do whatever he wants, and not only that you still call him just and fair. You can call him whatever you want, but you can't change the definition of words.
Quote: He is fair, loving, and just because they are part of His nature, so everything He does is fair, loving, and just regardless of what you think.
Including torturing people for eternity and having people on earth killed on a whim. Gotcha.
Quote:It is fair for both of us to be punished for Adam’s fall because Adam was mankind’s representative.
This is stupid. You're forgetting that God knew that Adam & Eve would disobey, yet he created them and put the fucking tree of knowledge right in the middle of the fucking Garden of Eden and told them not to eat from it. How fair and just is it to punish the entire bulk of humanity when he knew the first two humans would disobey him? To maintain that it's just and fair is just being totally willfully stupid, arrogant, and stubborn. There's no way you could ever justify punishing all of humanity for what the first two humans supposedly did. And where you really fail is that the Adam & Eve story was just a myth to begin with.
Quote: When a country’s representatives declare war on another country, everyone in that country is now at war. When Adam rebelled we all became rebels.
The problem with this is that you can't condemn an entire country just because of what its leaders do. It's not just, nor is it fair. Even after WWII we helped the Germans rebuild and get on with their lives. We jailed the Nazis who were responsible, we didn't jail the entire country for what its leadership did. And you also seem to be forgetting that in some countries the people are not responsible for what their leaders do. So you would be hard pressed to make the claim that they all deserve to be punished.
Quote:You also act as if you have never sinned in your life, something I find highly doubtful.
I haven't. Define "sin" without using supernatural explanations.
Quote: So the whole “it was Adam not me” argument is fairly moot.
Nope, it's not. It's not fair nor just to condemn all of humanity to eternal torture for what two people supposedly did WHEN THE ONE DOING THE CONDEMNING KNEW ALL ALONG THAT THEY WOULD DISOBEY HIM. Sorry for the all-caps, but I feel like I need to scream this point that you seem to be ignoring.
Quote:Where did I say heaven?
When you made the analogy of the better deal of getting a life sentence rather than the death penalty.
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
